RE: Digital Evidence Question - What is an effective Windows hard -disk search tool?

["Robinson, Sonja" <SRobinson () HIPUSA com>]

Encase can not recover the files if they were overwritten by by a new
install because the O/S overwrote the files.  IF they happen to be near the
end of the hard drive and were NOT overwritten by the O/S install and any
other subsequent files, then Encase can possibly recover some of the files
but not the file structure.  I even verfified this with Encase since a new
version recently came out.  I use Encase (along with other tools) too and
I'm not sure how Encase came up in the conversation or how it will help the
user.  And it's always possible that some people use/know of different tools
then others.  That's why we have this and other lists.  Since I am not
familiar with the R-Studio product I can not say if it can or it can't but
like I previously stated I will download and test it.  Nothing personal but
I test everything not that I don't trust people.  Has nothing to do with
trust.

I don't think anyone meant to question your qualifications or otherwise
attack your statements so please don't take comments so personally and be so
antagnostic.  Asking for qualifications is certainly valid in cyberspace and
no one will (or should) take the "because I said so" as a valid explanation.
No one attacked pricing of any product.  The user just stated that he
preferred something free.  So I'm still left wondering how Encase would be a
valid example since it doesn't do the job and it costs $2500.  

But I am really curious about the R-Studio product and since you have tested
it I hope you don't mind if I ask you a couple of questions.  I know that if
you just repartition and don't install anything you can recover your files,
that's a given.   But what I'm really curious about, because this is the
cool part if what you say is true, is how the software can read a cluster
that has had data overwritten.  So for instance the cluster was for
arguments sake, cluster 195 and it contained "my secret bank account # is"
and that cluster was overwritten with the new O/S install and the part that
filled the cluster was "s.y.s.m.a.i.n...s.d.b.E.......p.Z."   R-Studio can
read the original "My secret...." and put back the rest of that document
"213909485 and it is located in Geneva Switzerland" located in cluster 8715
which was also overwritten (it was in WORD) and have it readable by MS-WORD?

And I know that you can recover from an fdisk but an fdisk with a format 00
across an entire drive is very difficult to do with most tools, let alone
inexpensive ones.  Saying it's one pass I can see it potenitally happening.
I am also aware that it is now recommended to do 31 passes to ensure data
can't be recovered but I am also aware that it is very difficult to recover
any reformatted data.  To my knowledge, in the past, Ontrack has been the
main commercial player to recover this type of "lost" data.  Now if that
package can do that, I'm all for it.  When you said in your post "Not only
did it find and recover the originals we did it found a WIN98 operating
install that must have been done at the disk or computer manufactures".  Did
you mean that you were able to recover ALL of the original installs in their
original working state or did you mean that you were able to find that at
one time they existed?  Now I ask this because Enacse can tell you if things
previously existed in some circumstances but that didn't mean it could
recover the entire files/install/OS and have it in a format readable by the
original program.  I checked the R-sTudio website and I couldn't find where
it stated it could recover data from a reformatted drive or where cluster
were overwrriten.  Could you send me that link please because I'd really
like to check it out and test it on some drives that someone wiped.

My original point (e-mail) was that if the data has been overwritten you
couldn't recover the previous data (w/o extreme financial costs, blah, blah,
blah).  Am I to understand that this is no longer true?  If so, is there a
white paper anywhere on this and other "non-vendor" data?


Sonja Robinson, CISA
Network Security Analyst
HIP Health Plans
Office:  212-806-4125
Pager: 8884238615



-----Original Message-----
From: dave klimen [mailto:dave () netmedic net] 
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 6:43 PM
To: Robinson, Sonja; 'Wilcox, Stephen'; security-basics () securityfocus com;
'Gene LeDuc'
Subject: RE: Digital Evidence Question - What is an effective Windows hard
-disk search tool?


Sonja,

That is so far from correct.  With R-Studio $79
(http://www.r-tt.com/RStudio.shtml ), you can repartition, reformat (using
diff file systems) and still recover.  We tested a system that came fresh
from the factory with W2K single FAT partition.  We repartitioned it into 4
W2K NTFS partitions. Then one more time into 2 W2K NTFS. 

Not only did it find and recover the originals we did it found a WIN98
operating install that must have been done at the disk or computer
manufactures.

I also use EnCase as well as many other forensic tools. 

If you do not trust my opinion you can simply download the eval-copy which
will find and show you the lost info, but just will not recover them.


 
_____________________
Dave Kleiman
dave () netmedic net
www.netmedic.net

"High achievement always takes place in the framework of high expectation."
Jack Kinder

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Robinson, Sonja [mailto:SRobinson () HIPUSA com] 
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 10:50
To: 'Wilcox, Stephen'; 'security-basics () securityfocus com'
Subject: RE: Digital Evidence Question - What is an effective Windows hard
-disk search tool?



If you reformatted, don't waste your money on any product, your stuff is
gone and the $75 tool isn't going to help you.  Forensics tolls aren't going
to help you.  You're only hope is something like Ontrack and that will cost
you.  Even if you could recover some of the information from free space or
slack space, no your files wouldn't have been readable.  IF you has not
reformatted and IF you had not reinstalled the O/S yes they woul;d have been
readble by the original program.  You're pretty much toast dude.  Sorry.  It
is possible to reassemble files IF they are still there (99.5% chance
they're hosed) but reassembly will cost you serious $$ because it takes a
lot of time to do manually.  

Sonja Robinson, CISA
Network Security Analyst
HIP Health Plans
Office:  212-806-4125
Pager: 8884238615



-----Original Message-----
From: Wilcox, Stephen [mailto:StephenWilcox () universalcomputersys com] 
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 12:02 PM
To: Ansgar Wiechers; security-basics () securityfocus com
Subject: RE: Digital Evidence Question - What is an effective Windows hard
-disk search tool?


Do to the lack of knowledge and impatience I formatted the drive.  I now
have looked at a couple recovery tools out there but they run around $75..
ouch.  I will bite the bullet and get one I guess.  Here is the question,
once that the information is recover will the application be able to read
the file again or does the file have to be reassembled by a third party?  I
friend said that recovery is not a probable, reassembling the information in
a order so the application can read it is another thing.  I have no idea on
this, what is your thoughts?

Stephen





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