Security Basics mailing list archives
RE: Student-Degree valuable or not?
From: "Ben Huntley" <benh () steffian com>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:49:20 -0400
keep in mind that no one can ever take the degree away from you. also, some of the salary numbers being tossed around this thread may apply regionally. for example, one of the first messages made reference to $30K being too much to ask for. if you live/work in the northeast (e.g. Boston, NYC) this number isn't enough for you to survive on, therefore, the pay scale is much higher (as well as the cost of living). as a developer, i can't really speak for those in the security administration field, however, most entry-level jobs for software companies that are hiring [programmers] locally (and yep, some are) start off in the 40-50 range and move up from there. -b -----Original Message----- From: vam [mailto:devnull001 () fastmail fm] Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 3:48 AM To: Security-Basics Subject: Re: Student-Degree valuable or not? I am 24, have a Masters in Networking, and have been studying info security exclusively for the past 4 years.. so felt like chiming in.. Paul Ledin wrote:
I've read the other poster's gloom and doom about H1Bs and the mass IT outsourcing to the 3rd world, but IMHO it's overblown. If everybody's outsourcing to India(or whereever) then why are American IT job loss projections over the next 10 years only like 10%? It's not like it's some tightly guarded secret that a 3rd world developer makes 1/10th what an American does. If your good, you'll find work.
I agree. Also, imho, IT outsourcing has its limitations. My theory is that anything that's automate-able - something that an average Joe can learn from a textbook or two - can and perhaps should be outsourced to firms full of average Joes who can perhaps do it better for cheaper. Call centers, data entry jobs, web site design etc perhaps? But not cutting edge R&D! Correct me if I am wrong, but I can't imagine firms like @stake, ISS (X-force), or even SAS etc outsourcing to anywhere outside US.. Further, US has, for years/decades, imported skilled labor in all sorts of areas, which works out pretty well for entrepreneurship/innovation.. So you'll have network modeling statisticians with PhDs working with Avaya along side core C/system programmers over a next generation VoIP product. This can't happen in most 3rd world countries. And I don't think we can pursuade a good number of these folks (a significant fraction of whom are Not from India/China) to move to those countries even for comparable salaries, it just isn't the same lifestyle outthere. So, CEOs will have to work off of local limited talent (yes, very senior software engineers perhaps) over there if they chose to outsource core R&D teams too. How about Intellectual Property protection! I don;t think the concept of startups, where trade secrets mean everything, can exist for long in India/China. Piracy is rampant, and lawsuits almost never happen. Services model works best for them for exactly that reason, there's no innovation to protect. Same with selling stuff you create. The main sales offices will still always have to be in US/UK/France etc. I can think of a zillion other hurdles complete IT outsourcing will face.. it could still happen if CEOs remain short sighted and greedy, and the US govt and INS continues to 'ignore' this problem. Reducing the H1B cap as someone pointed out is like fueling outsourcing even more. Another mismanagement marvel - all highly skilled H1Bs are forced to leave US after 6 years to work with overseas companies that directly compete with US!? Companies could easily be given some good incentives in creating jobs in US versus outsourcing - tax relief etc. Ad infinitum..
As far as the security thing goes, I'm of the opinion that in 4 years time the market will be swimming in *security engineers*. Don't they make like $100K with no experience? And unlimited frapachinos! ;-) I definitely think that security knowledge is a must in the IT field, but I'd be careful not to pigeonhole yourself. I'm holding off till either (a) Teach Yourself IT Security in 24 Hours is released, or (b) that dude hawking learn Windoze98 CDs, *guarantees* me that he will make me a security professional to make my prediction final.
I don't think 'learn security in 24 days/hours' is possible (if that's what you meant is possible). A lot about security is not exact science or trivial. Writing exploits, reverse engineering, auditing binaries, forensics is not for everyone. Plus, its a dynamic field with almost no standards (how about the evolution of shellcodes, for example). So, its a nice niche to be in if you think you are good at it. :) Thanks, Vinay. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Current thread:
- Re: Student-Degree valuable or not?, (continued)
- Re: Student-Degree valuable or not? Kamal Habayeb (Sep 26)
- Re: Student-Degree valuable or not? Paul Ledin (Sep 26)
- Re: Student-Degree valuable or not? vam (Sep 29)
- RE: Student-Degree valuable or not? DANIEL SIMPSON (Sep 29)
- Re: Student-Degree valuable or not? Daszczyszak, Roman L. SPC (1AD 501 MI BN ACE IMO) (Sep 29)
- Re: Student-Degree valuable or not? Brian G. (Sep 29)
- Re: Student-Degree valuable or not? Meritt James (Sep 29)
- Re: Student-Degree valuable or not? Brian G. (Sep 29)
- RE: Student-Degree valuable or not? Meidinger Chris (Sep 29)
- RE: Student-Degree valuable or not? DeGennaro, Gregory (Sep 29)
- RE: Student-Degree valuable or not? Depp, Dennis M. (Sep 29)
- RE: Student-Degree valuable or not? Ben Huntley (Sep 29)
- Re: Student-Degree valuable or not? ~Kevin DavisĀ³ (Sep 30)
- Re: Student-Degree valuable or not? JGrimshaw (Sep 30)
- Re: Student-Degree valuable or not? ~Kevin DavisĀ³ (Sep 30)
- RE: Student-Degree valuable or not? Randy Golly (Sep 29)
- RE: Student-Degree valuable or not? Seyberth Allan R Contr AFRL/VSIO (Sep 29)
- RE: Student-Degree valuable or not? Brian Graybeal (Sep 30)
- RE: Student-Degree valuable or not? DANIEL SIMPSON (Sep 30)
- RE: Student-Degree valuable or not? Chris Berry (Sep 30)