Security Basics mailing list archives
Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator
From: "Craig Wright" <cwright () bdosyd com au>
Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 08:46:26 +1100
Hi, First to what I have been saying all along "There IS a distinction between the two" (incident response, forensics). Agreed as stated. The argument seems to be gravitating towards one of specialist vs. generalist Certified Information Forensics Investigator CIFI was grandfathered by a large number of people (though now closed). Encase etc are JUST technical certs for the use of a product - they are not proof of forensic skills. CCE and MCCE have no grandfather provision but are otherwise similar to the CIFI though they are focused on Forensics and not incident response. SANs for an independent technical point of view have the best training and Certificates (esp. at Gold level). Again, Incident response is separate to Forensics in this and they have separate certs (GCFA, GCIH). Re ISSFA, "This is one organization that is making a concerted effort to establish criteria and universally acceptable certification". This is one of several organisations. It is not the oldest, not the largest. I have no issues with the ISSFA, but it is not the only one. PS... What is a "CISM Forensic Specialist"? CISM I know...I have one, but no one at ISACA has offered this one to me. Regards Craig -----Original Message----- From: Robinson, Sonja [mailto:SRobinson () HIPUSA com] Sent: 8 February 2006 2:17 To: Mark Teicher; security-basics () securityfocus com Subject: RE: Spam: RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator No, not really. Without getting technical and into strict defintions because I really just don't have the time at the moment.... In corporate/private practice, just as in LE, there are "forensics" teams there are also "investigators". There IS a distinction between the two though. Sometimes one person does both and sometimes they don't. Good digitial investigators generally should know both because you should be doing both at the same time - performing your investigation in a forensically sound manner. (Sometimes you as a forensic person are assisting an official investigator but let's not split hairs. Reality is that much of the time you ARE the forensics tehcnician AND the investigator because companies generally don't employ both). Here is an example of good investigation/bad forensics. So if I was a PI (which I was) and I backtraced a threatening e-mail for my client. I printed out the headers and the e-mail. Then I deleted the e-mail and did not retain a forensically acceptable copy (don't read into the use of the word "copy"-you know what I mean). I may have been very good investigating the threat and back tracing it to the originating ISP and locating the perp but I've deleted the evidence. I can not recreate it and I can not prove it was not fabricated. Everything I did for the victim/client is moot. Nothing happens to the perp since I have no evidence, the threatening e-mail turns into a murder/suicide. Therefore, while I was a good investigator I was NOT a good forensics technician. Therefore, my case is dismissed because there is no evidence other than a print out which can be easily faked. THAT is the distinction. But being a great forensics person does not mean you are a great investigator either. This is where network security and IT knowledge comes in. It makes you better at both. There really is no one place or body that issues a universally accepted certificate in "forensics". There are proprietary certificates such as Encase, Access Data or NTI. There are group/organization certificates for forensics such as IISFA, etc. But as of yet, there is no "one" agreed upon certification like the CISSP for instance. That is in the works so to speak. Professional groups are taking steps to try to define a set of standards that will be required for certifications and in order to accurately advertise yourself as "forensics". I would like to note that the main technical responses have come from 3 people who hold the CIFI through the IISFA - Dave Kleinbaum, Bob Radvanvsky and myself. This is one organization that is making a concerted effort to establish criteria and universally acceptable certification. In those "books" that you mention and in that persons common body of knowledge most likely is a good foundation of forensics. Not necessarily but most likely. Investigations and forensics are not the same nor are the mutually exclusive. Sonja L. Robinson, CISSP, CIFI, CISA, CISM Forensic Specialist, Digital Investigations HIP Information Security Group Tel: 212-806-4125 srobinson () hipusa com -----Original Message----- From: Mark Teicher [mailto:mht3 () earthlink net] Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 7:28 AM To: Craig Wright; Robinson, Sonja; security-basics () securityfocus com Subject: RE: Spam: RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator So if one has written six books on Internet and Investigations, as well as a number of articles for various PI magazines, with a CISSP certification, a NSA IAM certificate, a Private Investigator license and a certification in email tracing, that doesn't make one certified a Cyber Crime Investigator?? I still don't understand the difference then ? / -----Original Message-----
From: Craig Wright <cwright () bdosyd com au> Sent: Feb 6, 2006 4:51 PM To: "Robinson, Sonja" <SRobinson () HIPUSA com>, security-basics () securityfocus com Subject: RE: Spam: RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator Hello, There is a confusion between forensic analysis and incident response. Although these are related and in fact many people do both, they are not the same. Incident response teams or personal are needed in many organisations. Having a good investigative team makes life easier for a
forensic analyst. They are however different roles. Oft the roles will overlap, but the primary focus of forensics is obtaining and preserving evidence. This may go against a corporations aims to have production systems running as soon as possible. I am not talking of LE at all. Rather I am stating insolvency support, litigation support, etc. Network security does not mean knowing where to look for logs. This is a technical skill. Again a case where people get the more esoteric nature of the role confused with the technical skills. Very few people can investigate a hard drive in a manner that is acceptable without challenger in court. This is the role of forensics. General investigation is a role in incident response. I am sure that this will garnish further comment - but I am a purist when it comes to definitive terminology. Incident response and Forensics are separate (though related disciplines). Most of the comments are asking about the former though stating them as the latter. Regards Craig -----Original Message----- From: Robinson, Sonja [mailto:SRobinson () HIPUSA com] Sent: 7 February 2006 1:51 To: Craig Wright; security-basics () securityfocus com Subject: Spam: RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator I'm Sorry but I have to disagree with some of your statements while I agree with some others. 1) Many corporations in the US and around the world are hiring EXPERIENCED forensic personnel. I have worked as a consultant and for private companies doing forensics for over 8 years now. My start was private. I have never been "employed" by LE however, I have been hired
by govts/military for jobs. You can start entry level Info Security and get trained by one of their staff if they feel you are up to the challenge. I am training a few co-workers myself and am helping them on the career path. Why corporate? Espionage, sexual harrasment, porn,
assault/murder,
hacking/incident response, identity theft, HIPAA/SOX, resource abuse, etc. etc. Believe me, there's plenty of work on the corporate side - you don't have to go LE if you don't want to. That's just the tip of the iceberg. You must assume that your cases will go to court, especially if employees are terminated as a result of your investigation. Sometimes you work hand in hand with LE. You can get more than they can until you become their agent for internal investigations. But that's where you need ot know the law aspect. Sometimes you need their assistance with items such as subpoenas, etc. Also with the Calif law that is being adopted throughout the US, you will be working with LE for disclousres. 2) Network security is essential if you want to perform and investigation. How will you know where to look, what logs to obtain, etc. You must also know the law in the country, states and other jurisdictions that the case involves (i.e subpoena in another state/country). Nothing personal but with the right tools, most anyone
can investigate a hard drive although they will most likely screw up the acquisition, chain of custody and legal aspects thereby nullifying their review. Point being, it takes a lot of training and experience and if you can't find your way around a network you;ve got no business doing an investigation because you will only be looking at a small part
of the picture in many cases. 3) There is no "one" certification. There are ones that are more common, advisable etc. but there is no one stop shopping. 4) I agree with everything up to the "after incident response". This is because, IT people will most liekly trample your evidence. Ideally you should be preserving evidence while they correct a problem so it should be in tandem. Of course, many time it does occur after IT has responded and corrected an issue. Your company should make a decision before hand wether their primary goal is recovery, forensics or both. The answer will vary by system, issue, etc. 5) There are classes you can take, some proprietary/some not. There are many groups you can join to learn if you are truly interested. The
job can be boring and monotonous (i.e. Log reading and correlation) but
it's also a lot of fun. It's a big game of hide and seek and I think it's a blast. It's never the same and you find out a lot about people. 6) I totally agree with pretty much every other statement of Craig's. It's work, it's integrity, it's honesty, a lot of good communication skills, a knowledge of law, operating systems, networking, incident response and recovery, network security, cryptography/steganography, and the ability to think like criminals/abusers without actually being
one.
You must also remember that you can not speculate. You present facts. 7) Forensics is a science of processes. It deals in facts. There ARE
a lot of people and products who purport to be "forensics" but are not and are well, we'll just say, "not able to present or be presentable" in court for a number of reasons. Sonja L. Robinson, CISSP, CIFI, CISA, CISM Forensic Specialist, Digital
Investigations HIP Information Security Group Tel: 212-806-4125 srobinson () hipusa com -----Original Message----- From: Craig Wright [mailto:cwright () bdosyd com au] Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 5:22 PM To: security-basics () securityfocus com Subject: RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator First, Computer Forensics is a separate discipline to Computer
Security.
Next, incident response in business is not generally about forensics nor does it have a lot to do with it. Other than a low level knowledge of systems (and forget the tools based - Encase training only - approach). A strong knowledge of law is required. Your job/role as a forensic services provider (of any type) is to provide court support. This is it - full stop. Your job is; 1 Investigate. Document Preserve the "chain of evidence", 2 Document everything. This is for and against. You have to be impartial. 3 Be prepared to sit in court and have your life, experience and training picked apart. 4 Answer the facts simply and succinctly, no more, no less. What you are asked you answer. Your opinion only comes into this when and IF your have been directly asked. The role is slow and methodological. If you think accounting and being an auditor is fun, than you may fit into the role. Complete some courses in English grammar and report writing. This is an
essential skill. Spelling and punctuation can make or break your career
in this field. Forensics has NOTHING to do with detection of an attack. It comes after
the attack. It comes after the initial incident response process. Knowledge of incident response is needed to ensure the "chain of evidence", but it is not generally part of your role as a forensic analyst. SANs GCFA is a good preliminary as is CCE. Neither will make you more than an intern level by itself. You will be judged (at more than an intern level) on how you handle cases. How you respond in court. Many prospective employers will expect to view transcripts of cases you have
been involved with to see how you handle under cross. You want to be top of the field. Many years. Much training. Calm demeanour. Honesty. Integrity. This is the simple answer. There is a great deal more as well. You need at least knowledge of the law (a degree is not necessary, but does help. This is how experience as an officer of the law aides). Absolutely NO knowledge of information security is required (in contradiction to popular belief). It does
help.
Familiarity of file-systems is crucial. Learn both Linux and Windows at
the least. Understand how to create a timeline. Know how to extract and
analyse slack space while maintaining evidential integrity. These are some of the required skills (tip of the iceberg). There are many people who profess to have computer forensic skills. There are very few who really have these skills. There are even fewer who can use their skills in court. Regards Craig Dr Craig S Wright DTh MNSA MMIT CISA CISM CISSP ISSMP ISSAP G7799 GCFA AFAIM Manager - Computer Assurance Services BDO Chartered Accountants & Advisers Level 19, 2 Market Street, Sydney, NSW 2001 Telephone: +61 2 9286 5555 Fax: +61 2 9993 9705 Direct: +61 2 9286 5497 <Mailto:CWright () bdosyd com au> -----Original Message----- From: mhayden [mailto:mike_hayden () quintum com] Sent: 2 February 2006 7:46 To: security-basics () securityfocus com Subject: RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator Koolk3, I am also looking into this, I don't have much information but this is what I've gathered: - There seem to genarally be 2 facets of Forensics: * Computer Forensics - pouring over someone's harddrive to gather and document evidence. * Network Forensics - Alot of what the folks on this list do on a day to day basis, intrusion protection, detection and analysis. You can persue one or the other but it sounds like you want a combination of both. - It has been suggested to me that if I was interested I should persue a Law Enforcement career and go at it from that angle. I have been a Software developer for almost 20 years, in the US I'm too old for Law Enforcement (35 yrs is the cutoff in my state) so that option is out for me. - Another suggestion was the FBI or CIA as a civilian professional or if you meet the age/citizenship criteria an Agent. - There are also private companies that do Computer Forensics and are hired out by Lawyers or Law Enforcement that need the help when computers are acquired in crimes. I have taken a Computer Forensics class at the college level to get a feel for that but unfortunately that isn't enough to get you in the door (unless you get lucky). I also get the feeling that without an IT
background you are out in the cold. Another suggestion was to join one of the local chapters of the IACIS (International Association of Computer Investigative Specialists). I think you would need to be invited in my an existing member and I'm not
sure if its only open to Law Enforcement folks checkout there website (http://www.iacis.info/iacisv2/pages/home.php). There are many different groups, some are open to civilians and some are not. Hope this helps a bit. I look forward to comments from others to help me in my quest also. MH -----Original Message----- From: security-basics-return-38141-mike_hayden=quintum.com () securityfocus com [mailto:security-basics-return-38141-mike_hayden=quintum.com@securityfo c us.com]On Behalf Of Koolk3 Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 12:21 PM To: security-basics () securityfocus com Subject: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator Hi List, I tried posting this before, didn't go through. So I am trying again. I am interested in becoming a Forensics/Cyber Crime Investigator preferably with any law enforcement agency in Canada. I will graduate this April with a Bachelor in Computer Engineering. I have some experince in Forensics and IT security from coop placements and wanted to take this option as a career. My questions are: 1) What kind of certification is the most demanding/respected among law
enforcement aganices in Canada/US? 2) If anyone on the list is with RCMP, OPP or any other law enforcement
agency here could you please give me any information on a possible career path. Where do I start? Are these kind of jobs considered as a civilian job? 3) Those in the USA: could you please tell me if I can have any prospect there as a Canadian citizen. I would imagine you would need an
US citizen to work in the law enforcement agencies, but what about private organizations? 4) Any information in building a career path in this field would be helpful. Thanks everyone. -- KoolK3 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- EARN A MASTER OF SCIENCE IN INFORMATION ASSURANCE - ONLINE The Norwich University program offers unparalleled Infosec management education and
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the case study affords you unmatched consulting experience. Tailor your education to your own professional goals with degree customizations including Emergency Management, Business Continuity Planning, Computer Emergency Response Teams, and Digital
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Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender.
You may not rely on this message as advice unless it has been electronically signed by a Partner of BDO or it is subsequently confirmed by letter or fax signed by a Partner of BDO.
BDO accepts no liability for any damage caused by this email or its
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----------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- EARN A MASTER OF SCIENCE IN INFORMATION ASSURANCE - ONLINE The Norwich University program offers unparalleled Infosec management education and the case study affords you unmatched consulting
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Tailor your education to your own professional goals with degree customizations including Emergency Management, Business Continuity Planning, Computer Emergency Response Teams, and Digital
Investigations.
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------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- EARN A MASTER OF SCIENCE IN INFORMATION ASSURANCE - ONLINE The Norwich University program offers unparalleled Infosec management education and the case study affords you unmatched consulting experience. Tailor your education to your own professional goals with degree customizations including Emergency Management, Business Continuity Planning, Computer Emergency Response Teams, and Digital Investigations. http://www.msia.norwich.edu/secfocus ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- EARN A MASTER OF SCIENCE IN INFORMATION ASSURANCE - ONLINE The Norwich University program offers unparalleled Infosec management education and the case study affords you unmatched consulting experience. Tailor your education to your own professional goals with degree customizations including Emergency Management, Business Continuity Planning, Computer Emergency Response Teams, and Digital Investigations. http://www.msia.norwich.edu/secfocus ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- Liability limited by a scheme approved under Professional Standards Legislation in respect of matters arising within those States and Territories of Australia where such legislation exists. DISCLAIMER The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use or disclose the information. If you have received this email in error, please inform us promptly by reply email or by telephoning +61 2 9286 5555. Please delete the email and destroy any printed copy. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender. You may not rely on this message as advice unless it has been electronically signed by a Partner of BDO or it is subsequently confirmed by letter or fax signed by a Partner of BDO. BDO accepts no liability for any damage caused by this email or its attachments due to viruses, interference, interception, corruption or unauthorised access. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- EARN A MASTER OF SCIENCE IN INFORMATION ASSURANCE - ONLINE The Norwich University program offers unparalleled Infosec management education and the case study affords you unmatched consulting experience. Tailor your education to your own professional goals with degree customizations including Emergency Management, Business Continuity Planning, Computer Emergency Response Teams, and Digital Investigations. http://www.msia.norwich.edu/secfocus ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Current thread:
- Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator Koolk3 (Feb 01)
- RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator mhayden (Feb 02)
- Re: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator Isaac Perez (Feb 02)
- Re: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator Brandon Steili (Feb 04)
- <Possible follow-ups>
- Re: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator Mark Teicher (Feb 05)
- Re: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator Dragos Ruiu (Feb 06)
- RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator Craig Wright (Feb 05)
- RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator Robinson, Sonja (Feb 06)
- Re: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator Mark Teicher (Feb 07)
- RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator Craig Wright (Feb 08)
- Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator Craig Wright (Feb 09)
- RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator Craig Wright (Feb 09)
- RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator dave kleiman (Feb 10)
- RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator Craig Wright (Feb 09)
- RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator Craig Wright (Feb 10)
- RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator Craig Wright (Feb 10)
- RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator Craig Wright (Feb 10)
- Re: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator Bob Radvanovsky (Feb 10)
- Re: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator Bob Radvanovsky (Feb 10)
- RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator Craig Wright (Feb 11)
- RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator Craig Wright (Feb 13)
(Thread continues...)