Re: what should I do when....

[Adriel Desautels <adriel () netragard com>]

Ain't that the truth!

Regards,
        Adriel T. Desautels
        Chief Technology Officer
        Netragard, LLC.
        Office : 617-934-0269
        Mobile : 617-633-3821
        http://www.linkedin.com/pub/1/118/a45

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Ahmad M Kamali wrote:
> Dude, for many years I tried to tell people hacking is good cracking is 
> bad. Well.... it is the media
> that says the last word, if they say firewall is a security device then 
> it is, who are you and me to
> question the media's wisdom.
>
> LG
>
>
> On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 11:14 -0400, Adriel Desautels wrote:
> > Ansgar,
> > 	You are right, I am wrong. A firewall is not a traffic shaping device 
> > and I was using the wrong terminology (which doesn't happen very often, 
> > but its somewhat refreshing when it does and I'm corrected).
> >
> > 	I do stand by my *opinion* that a firewall is not a security device but 
> > is a traffic control device. My opinion can be contradicted as the 
> > definition of security is to protect from harm, and firewalls do protect 
> > some systems from harm. That is not enough to make me change my mind 
> > though. Firewalls do not protect *enough* and are easy enough to 
> > circumvent.
> >
> > Regards,
> >         Adriel T. Desautels
> >         Chief Technology Officer
> >         Netragard, LLC.
> >         Office : 617-934-0269
> >         Mobile : 617-633-3821
> >         http://www.linkedin.com/pub/1/118/a45
> >
> >         Join the Netragard, LLC. Linked In Group:
> >         http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/48683/0B98E1705142
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> > Netragard, LLC - http://www.netragard.com  -  "We make IT Safe"
> > Penetration Testing, Vulnerability Assessments, Website Security
> >
> > Netragard Whitepaper Downloads:
> > -------------------------------
> > Choosing the right provider : http://tinyurl.com/2ahk3j
> > Three Things you must know  : http://tinyurl.com/26pjsn
> >
> >
> > Ansgar -59cobalt- Wiechers wrote:
> > > On 2008-07-10 Adriel Desautels wrote:
> > >> What I said is not wrong, it is actually very accurate.
> > > 
> > > No.
> > > 
> > >> Firewalls are traffic shaping devices and it is my opinion that they
> > >> are not security devices. In fact, I'm not sure what you disagree
> > >> with.
> > > 
> > > Look up the definition of "traffic shaping" (e.g. [1]). Look up the
> > > definition of "firewall" (e.g. [2]). Notice the difference.
> > > 
> > >> I said:
> > >>
> > >> "It is my opinion that firewalls are not security devices as much as
> > >> they are traffic shaping devices. Their job is to control network
> > >> connections and the flow of traffic, not to ensure that something
> > >> can't be hacked."
> > >>
> > >> You accused me of being wrong, but then you said:
> > >>
> > >> "A firewall is the implementation of a concept of what kind of traffic 
> > >> you want to allow or disallow between any two given networks."
> > >>
> > >> Isn't that what I said?
> > > 
> > > No.
> > > 
> > >> You are in fact shaping traffic by controlling what goes in and out. I
> > >> suppose my use of the term "Traffic Shaping" could be argued.
> > > 
> > > No.
> > > 
> > > Firewalls accept or deny access based on their ruleset. Traffic shaping
> > > devices don't decide whether to accept or deny anything, but modify
> > > packet rates in order to optimize network performance and/or bandwidth
> > > usage. Two entirely different concepts, using different means to achieve
> > > different ends.
> > > 
> > >> I do think that firewalls can be used to enforce certain policies that
> > >> are security oriented, but firewalls are not in my opinion security
> > >> devices.
> > > 
> > > Then your opinion is wrong. Plain and simple.
> > > 
> > > The decision what you want to allow or disallow into or out of your
> > > network is by any means a security decision. Firewalls implement and
> > > enforce this decision on a technical level and therefore are by
> > > definition security devices.
> > > 
> > > [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_shaping
> > > [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firewall
> > > 
> > > Regards
> > > Ansgar Wiechers