Bugtraq mailing list archives
Re: DoS vulnerabilities in Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, Opera and other browsers
From: "John Smith" <at-x () live com>
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 20:37:50 +0530
Just a few cents - DoS in webbrowsers doesn't fall under the category of "vulnerabilities" rather more of "annoyances". Although I don't deny the fact that certain DoS attacks *may lead* or *may serve as hints* to other more serious exploits, but that's a different topic and with ASLR in the scene, a very grey area of discussion.
Case in point: XSS can be of various kinds and most of them (I'm talking of about 99.99%) can be attributed to the design of the web technologies/protocols specifications (http, ajax, etc etc...you name it) and the browsers can only do that much. Hence its not feasible for a webbrowser to 'prevent' them without tampering the protocol or annoying you with continuous messages about what it is doing (assuming all users have the knowledge of how web works as much as the people on this list). So unless you pinpoint the exact flaw (XSS or DoS) its very hard to assume whether the browser in question actually needs a fix for it.
Best Regards, w -------------------------------------------------- From: "MustLive" <mustlive () websecurity com ua> Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 2:23 AM To: "Susan Bradley" <sbradcpa () pacbell net> Cc: <bugtraq () securityfocus com>Subject: Re: DoS vulnerabilities in Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, Opera and other browsers
Hello Susan!As I already wrote you and Adam earlier, every type of disclosure (including full disclosure and responsible full disclosure) can be good in appropriatesituation. And I use that type of disclosure which is suitable for every particular case.Taking into account that 3 from 4 vendors answered me (except Microsoft) and Google had already non affected Chrome 4, and Mozilla and Opera promised tofix it (we'll see when and how they do it), then you can see that myapproach works. And responsible full disclosure can force browser vendors toattend more at security of their software. Soon I'll write to security mailing lists about new vulnerabilities in different browsers. And you can not worry about that - in those advisoriesI'll use a littler different approach of informing browser vendors. You willlike it ;-).Let's take one for example. Did you email secure () microsoft com? I have before and 100% of the time they respond.Yes, I did. I emailed Microsoft, like other browser vendors. I knew their emails, because I wrote to all of these four vendors a lot of times during2007-2010, and all of them answered many times (who more, who less). But asI already wrote, in 99% cases they ignored to fix DoS holes (even if they answered and told, that they agreed that it was DoS and they'd think about fixing it).For example Microsoft one time even answered me twice (with thanks), when Iinformed them about XSS in IE6. But they didn't fix this vulnerability. It was Saved XSS (this type of XSS I created after I found this hole in IE), which was already posted at Bugtraq in 2007. And in 2008 I informed Microsoft (and posted to Bugtraq) about this vulnerability in IE7 - but MSignored. And in 2009 MS released IE8 where this hole was fixed (as I checkedit), without mentioning about this fact and without thanking me (justsilently). Similarly to Mozilla's approach with one XSS in Firefox (which Iinformed them), which I already mentioned to Bugtraq in beginning of 2009. But about DoS holes they didn't answer in 99% of time. And Microsoft never fixed DoS holes in IE, which I informed them, but fix DoS hole in Outlook. And answered me twice: one time with thanks and latter when they fixed (MS was only one vendor who informed me that it fixed DoS hole in theirsoftware, from all of those few cases when browser vendors fixed DoS holes).So as it clear, browser vendors only answer when they want.Patches take time. The do not occur over night. Furthermore it may take a day for the vendor to respond to you.As I mentioned, 3 from 4 developers answered me (but it's not common forcases with DoS holes). But MS didn't answer me for more than 1,5 week. Fromwhich you can see their attitude to such issues. And on example of Google,which Chrome 4 was invulnerable to this hole (only Chrome 1.x), shows theirattitude to such issues - that they are working to fix holes (includingthose which was in older versions of their browser) even before they will befound and disclosed by researchers.Should you have issues, would you consider emailing me first so I can introduce you to contacts?Thanks, I don't need help with informing browser vendors. They with no doubts received all my letters in 2007-2010 and would receive all futureletters. But as said, I'll not be more informing them about DoS holes. Thisdecision I made in August 2009 and it's final decision. Best wishes & regards, MustLive Administrator of Websecurity web site http://websecurity.com.ua----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Bradley" <sbradcpa () pacbell net>To: "MustLive" <mustlive () websecurity com ua> Cc: <bugtraq () securityfocus com> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 2:58 AM Subject: Re: DoS vulnerabilities in Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, Opera and other browsersLet's take one for example. Did you email secure () microsoft com? I have before and 100% of the time they respond. Patches take time. The do not occur over night. Furthermore it may take a day for the vendor to respond to you. This isn't about past issues, this is about this issue. A single day did not pass between when you emailed these vendors and when you posted here. Have you considered giving these vendors time to respond? I do not find that 99% of them don't, rather I find that they do. Should you have issues, would you consider emailing me first so I can introduce you to contacts? MustLive wrote:Hello Susan!Granted I can denial of service a browser just by loading up a horrible add in or just using a browserDoS of the browser is already bad thing. And there are many risks for users from DoS holes in browsers, which I wrote about in 2008 in my articles Dangers of DoS attacks on browsers and Dangers of resources consumption DoS attacks. But mostly browser developers ignore to fix these issues. But in this case it's not only attack on browsers, but on the whole user's computer - because it's blocking of whole computer and full resource consumption. Which is working in many browsers, including their last versions. So browser developers with their neglect to this problem makepossible attacks on the whole users' systems. It was one of leitmotifs ofmy advisory.can I respectfully ask that you give vendors time to respond before posting?This informing of vendors was an exclusion. During 2007-2009 I informed many browser developers about many vulnerabilities (as DoS, as others) and gave them a lot of time for fixing in many of that cases. But they almost always ignore to fix the holes (especially DoS holes, which were only fixed fewtimes by Google and one time by Microsoft, and not in IE, but in Outlook,and 99% of cases were completely ignored). Taking that into account last year I decided from 2010 never inform browser vendors about DoS holes intheir browsers. And this time it was an exclusion (just one). In any casedue to full disclosure the Internet community will be knowing about the vulnerabilities in browsers which I found and will be knowing the real state of security of browsers. It was another leitmotif of my advisory. So this time I informed browser developers and users about these issues. And did I receive any thanks from Susan (especially taking into account that I did inform vendors) or any other user of browsers for this info? No :-). Did browser vendors answered me? No :-) (at first day) - which is normal for such cases, based on my experience. Only on second day Opera and Mozilla answered me and begun investigation of these cases (which is rare case when they responded on DoS hole, based on my experience), but not other vendors.These vendors do not ignore security issues and do respondAs I already said, in 99% they do ignore and don't respond (and sometimeswere such cases as responded but not fixed, and such case as not responded and not thanked me, but fixed). So taking into account my personal experience with finding vulnerabilities in browsers and informing vendors, I'm not informing them about DoS vulnerabilities in their browsers from this year (except this one case).From more then 5 years of my work here is TOP of different group of people,based on answering and fixing of vulnerabilities which I informed them about (the higher, the better): 1. Developers of Internet related software (such as web servers, ad blockers, etc.). 2. Developers of web applications. 3. Admins of web sites. 4. Developers of the browsers. Which must give you a ground for thoughts. Best wishes & regards, MustLive Administrator of Websecurity web site http://websecurity.com.ua
Current thread:
- DoS vulnerabilities in Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, Opera and other browsers MustLive (May 18)
- Re: DoS vulnerabilities in Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, Opera and other browsers Susan Bradley (May 18)
- Re: DoS vulnerabilities in Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, Opera and other browsers MustLive (May 20)
- Re: DoS vulnerabilities in Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, Opera and other browsers Susan Bradley (May 20)
- Re: DoS vulnerabilities in Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, Opera and other browsers MustLive (May 28)
- Re: DoS vulnerabilities in Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, Opera and other browsers John Smith (May 28)
- Re[2]: DoS vulnerabilities in Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, Opera and other browsers Vladimir '3APA3A' Dubrovin (May 28)
- Re: Re[2]: DoS vulnerabilities in Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, Opera and other browsers John Smith (May 28)
- Re[4]: DoS vulnerabilities in Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, Opera and other browsers Vladimir '3APA3A' Dubrovin (May 31)
- Re: Re[4]: DoS vulnerabilities in Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, Opera and other browsers John Smith (May 31)
- Re: DoS vulnerabilities in Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, Opera and other browsers MustLive (May 20)
- Re: DoS vulnerabilities in Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, Opera and other browsers Susan Bradley (May 18)