RE: Cisco IDS 4250 vs Sourcefire IS3000 + RNA Sensor

["Gary Halleen (ghalleen)" <ghalleen () cisco com>]

Tom,
 
Cisco IPS is not simply an inline IDS.  Yes, it utilizes signatures to
identify attacks.  In addition, though, it performs these actions, all
of which are features of an IPS:

1.              Traffic Normalization
2.              Anomaly Detection
3.              Stateful Inspection
4.              Protocol Compliance
5.              Denial-of-Service (DoS) Protection

Our IPS was tested by NSS in their most recent testing, and the results,
which were quite good, are publicly available.  You can access the
report at http://www.nss.co.uk/ips/edition3/index.htm
 
I don't believe a network-based IPS exists yet that can truly provide
zero-day, or zero-hour, worm protection all by itself.  Utilizing
capabilities like netflow, perhaps a product can identify when a worm
may have infected, or is trying to infect, your network, but stop it?
 
We have a long-term agreement with Trend Micro, and provide very fast
protection against worms.  Our IPS products (appliances, blades, and IOS
routing software) are now able to have anti-worm and anti-virus
signatures applied automatically within minutes of a new worm or virus
being discovered in the wild.  Many people call this fast response to a
worm or virus "zero-day", but in my opinion this is simply fast response
to threats.  True zero-day protection implies that no updates are needed
at all to provide the protection, because protection occurs immediately.
Our true, zero-day protection is host-based with Cisco Security Agent
(CSA).
 
CSA is behavior-based, and does not utilize signatures at all.  It is
able to protect hosts from all types of attacks by defining what is
considered good and bad.  The base protections are predefined in the
product, but can obviously be modified all you like.  
 
No single network device can ever provide 100% protection, regardless of
what a vendor may have told you.  They can strive to provide near-100%,
but real protection must be applied in layers, with each successive
layer enhancing the protection provided by the other layers.  This is
what our SAFE blueprint discusses.
 
You mention stateful firewalling as a feature of an IPS, but I disagree
with this assumption.  Stateful inspection of traffic is certainly a
feature, but not stateful firewalling, which implies all other features
of a firewall product, like network address translation and VPN.
Additionally, there is a big difference in the default policies deployed
on an IPS versus a firewall.  The default policy on an IPS is "Permit
all traffic except that which is malicious or explicitly defined."  The
default policy on a firewall is "Permit only traffic which is defined,
and deny all other traffic."  Proof of this difference in default
policies can be seen by simply looking at the perceived need for
software/hardware failure protection on IPS products.  Have you ever
heard a customer say "Hey Mr. Vendor, I want to make sure that if my
firewall fails, all traffic will pass unfiltered to the servers sitting
behind it."  However, this type of statement is common when they deploy
IPS.
 
For customers who desire IPS combined with stateful firewalling, we've
introduced our ASA-5500-series appliances.  With these products, you
combine best-of-breed firewall and IPS products in an easy to use
chassis.  You have very granular control over which traffic is
firewalled, and which traffic is also sent to the IPS.  You are also
able to choose whether the specified traffic is inspected inline or
passively, and you can combine both methods for different types of
traffic.
 
Gary
 
 
 

________________________________

From: Tom Hamlin [mailto:finacksyn () yahoo co uk] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 4:45 AM
To: Gary Halleen (ghalleen); Tim Holman; Jonathan Gauntt;
focus-ids () securityfocus com
Subject: RE: Cisco IDS 4250 vs Sourcefire IS3000 + RNA Sensor


Since when has an inline IDS become an IPS, or am I missing something?
IDS vendors are really confusing the market by using IPS terminology.
An inline IDS does partially fulfil the definition of an IPS, by using
signatures to protect against known exploits, but what about all the
other stuff an IPS does, like:
 
1. Anomaly detection / protocol validation
2. DOS protection
3. Stateful firewall
 
An IPS is a xth generation firewall, and not a 2nd generation IDS.  An
IDS only solves part of the problem that a network IPS is trying to
address.
I know this is all marketing speak, but it's confusing the technical
community here, and decent IPS products are being thrown into the same
bin as inline-IDS 'IPSes' and being discarded as stillborn technology,
when they're clearly not.
My company suffered severe downtime having deployed an inline-IDS, that
was touted to provide zero-day protection against the worm that got
straight through it.  The Security Manager lost his job for putting his
complete faith in a market-leading IDS vendor who told him that their
latest and greatest solution would defend against such things.
We have since re-evaluated our security infrastructure, and put things
in their correct places.  The IDS is on the inside, in passive mode,
whereas the IPS is outside the firewall, ensuring the entire network is
protected.
Although it's OK to put an IDS inline, don't expect it to offer 100%
protection, and at least compliment the IDS with dedicated upstream IPS
technology.
 
Matthew
 
 


"Gary Halleen (ghalleen)" <ghalleen () cisco com> wrote:

        The IDS-4250, with 5.0 or later code on it, will function as
either an
        IDS, or an IPS, or both.
        
        Multiple Cisco 4200-series sensors can be clustered through
etherchannel
        load-balancing to scale throughput, as well as provide failure
        protection, if your needs change. This is available both in
passive
        mode (IDS) and inline modes (IPS). 
        
        Gary
        
        
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Tim Holman [mailto:tim_holman () hotmail com] 
        Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 4:32 AM
        To: Jonathan Gauntt; focus-ids () securityfocus com
        Subject: Re: Cisco IDS 4250 vs Sourcefire IS3000 + RNA Sensor
        
        Hi Jonathan,
        
        Wouldn't you rather block bad traffic, rather than detect it?
        Most companies are moving away from IDS as a protection
mechanism,
        because:
        
        1) It only detects, and doesn't effectively block intrusions
        2) Problems with false positives, as by using pattern matching
        signatures, there is always a chance that these patterns also
appear in
        valid traffic
        3) Management overheads. An IDS can only be a reasonably
effective
        prevention method if there is someone on hand 24/7 to monitor
logs and
        take immediate action on intrusions. Even then , the intrusion
has got
        in, as admins very rarely use the active blocking features of an
IDS
        (namely sending RST packets to kill connections, or modifying
upstream
        ACLs), as these are too likely to have an effect on valid
traffic
        4) There is absolutely no protection for rate-based attacks
(SYN, TCP,
        UDP
        floods)
        5) Without maintaining a L3/4 connection/state table, there is
no way
        an IDS can be truly stateful. 100% statefulness means that
everything
        from the initial SYN to the final RST/FIN packet of a connection
is
        stored in a connection table. This requires the device to be
INLINE,
        and operating at L3. This is the only way a protection device
can
        provide effective defence against L3 attacks. An offline IDS
cannot do
        this.
        
        I would recommend looking at IPS products instead, so something
that you
        can postion inline and get immediate value from.
        If you feel the Cisco IDS is getting a little tired, then an IPS
will
        also help take the load off it, by getting rid of Internet white
noise,
        providing additional firewall filtering, and also defence
against
        rate-based attacks.
        A true IPS will focus on defining what is GOOD traffic, and
assuming all
        else is BAD (and dropping it). By doing this, zero-day attacks
can be
        virtually be eliminated, as they all ultimately rely on abuse of
a valid
        protocol in the hope of slipping past your protection mechanisms
and
        onto your network.
        This works quite well in conjucntion with an IDS, that focuses
on
        searching traffic for badness.
        Replacing like for like (IDS for IDS) is not going to give you
much
        value, and even the market analysts are recommending against it.
        IDS isn't dead. Far off it, but use it for what it's good for -
        DETECTION and FORENSICS, and not as a device that can insure
your
        network against rate-based and zero-day attacks.
        
        Regards,
        
        Tim
        
        
        
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Jonathan Gauntt" 
        To: 
        Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 5:57 PM
        Subject: Cisco IDS 4250 vs Sourcefire IS3000 + RNA Sensor
        
        
        > Hi,
        >
        > We are currently running a Cisco IDS 4250 that monitors our
internal
        > traffic. We essentially use this device for historical
reporting
        because 
        > we
        > are a medical oriented facility with at least 100 3rd party
        connections to
        > us besides the 8000 employees.
        >
        > I am considering upgrading the Cisco IDS 4250 to the XL to
handle
        higher
        > throughput but have been evaluating the Sourcefire IS300 and
their RNA
        > sensor.
        >
        > I have the ability to purchase the Sourcefire unit or upgrade
the
        4250.
        >
        > Sourcefire claims that they are superior with state full IDS
        inspection 
        > and
        > an overall better product.
        >
        > Does anyone have any thoughts on these two products? I have
about
        $100k 
        > in
        > my budget to spend.
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        >
        > Jonathan
        >
        >
        >
        >
        
------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Test Your IDS
        >
        > Is your IDS deployed correctly?
        > Find out quickly and easily by testing it
        > with real-world attacks from CORE IMPACT.
        > Go to
        
http://www.securityfocus.com/sponsor/CoreSecurity_focus-ids_040708
        > to learn more.
        >
        
------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        > 
        
        
------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Test Your IDS
        
        Is your IDS deployed correctly?
        Find out quickly and easily by testing it 
        with real-world attacks from CORE IMPACT.
        Go to
http://www.securityfocus.com/sponsor/CoreSecurity_focus-ids_040708
        
        to learn more.
        
------------------------------------------------------------------------
        
        
------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Test Your IDS
        
        Is your IDS deployed correctly?
        Find out quickly and easily by testing it
        with real-world attacks from CORE IMPACT.
        Go to
http://www.securityfocus.com/sponsor/CoreSecurity_focus-ids_040708
        to learn more.
        
------------------------------------------------------------------------
        
        

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Test Your IDS

Is your IDS deployed correctly?
Find out quickly and easily by testing it
with real-world attacks from CORE IMPACT.
Go to http://www.securityfocus.com/sponsor/CoreSecurity_focus-ids_040708
to learn more.
------------------------------------------------------------------------