Full Disclosure mailing list archives
Re: Forgive Me My Trespasses (and take it off-list otherwise)
From: "Gregory A. Gilliss" <ggilliss () netpublishing com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:18:00 -0700
First things first - I am *not* an attorney (although I am taking the Law School Admissions Test next month - pointers off-list pls). The argument about the security of information that ISPs have access to is already a done deal. If attorneys or <shudder> the government want to get their filthy little hands on your emails, they are going to get them. Same goes for your naughty Web surfing habits and anything else computer related. Why? Because ninety-plus percent of them elected officials in America (and I would like very much to hear from subscribers in other countries about the composition of your respective representative bodies - off-list pls) are attorneys, and they know how to use the law (and they use it - way too often IMHBAO) to get what they want. Remember the phrase "legal ethics" is an oxymoron <G> In the eyes of the law (a catch phrase that roughly translates to "the rules of the game whether you like them or not"), ANYTHING can be had. ISPs (and I've worked for some and am currently running one) are ignorant of legal issues (I've sat and watched flagrant E.O.E. violations in a crowded office, fortunately not mine). Old school people know - don't write anything in an email tha you wouldn't want plastered on the front page of your local news rag (extend that to Web surfing as well). Right now this post is going to be stored on the hard disk somewhere in Fairlawn, New Jersey (anyone bother to run whois netsys.com). That means if Mister Leonard Rose of Fairlawn, New Jersey is in any way entangled in legal proceedings, what I am typing could very well become part of a court case ANYWHERE (depending upon jurisdiction which I am *not* going to get into in this post). The salient point that Mark Rasch makes is that the legal reasoning in this case was lousy. But it's the 9th Circus Court - you expect them to go off the deep end. The subpoena (Latin - compels testimony, and yes, they are negotiated routinely) was bad and should have been thrown out. Period. The rest, about "there must have been a break-in or trespass" is contemptible legal reasoning, as the author points out. BTW, the 9th Circuit Court is routinely referred to in California as the 9th Circus Court. These are the people who brought you the ruling that the phrase "under God" doesn't belong in the Constitution. If anyone wants to go into this point more, take it off-list, since it doesn't belong here, but I'm always up for a good legal argument :-) There is no guarantee of privacy for citizens in America (at least), and your information (including this post and all previous and subsequent posts) can and may end up in a courtroom. So watch your fingers while you type because you might regret what you say when the lawyers swoop down and take it. In this case they abused their subpoena power (routine), took advantage of the ignorance of the ISP (also routine), and then (and this is gonna get the list admin on my case for sure) took advantage of your (yes, you reading this, human) busy life to render yet another stroke against freedom and liberty and consent. And if you live in America, shame on you for letting this happen because we still can own guns and vote the bums out of office. Bottom line, people, is that there *is* no security for your information when it comes to the law. So watch your back! G Postscript: I am going to have to change my userid to instigator after this one :-) On or about 2003.09.09 01:05:50 +0000, morning_wood (se_cur_ity () hotmail com) said:
re - Forgive Me My Trespasses http://www.securityfocus.com/cgi-bin/sfonline/columnists-item.pl?id=183 resp: i would have to agree that the request is "social engineering". the case should be treated as such as if the requesting subpoena was for "files" of memos ( and messages ) contained in a file cabinet of all traffic from all customers. Much like the Western Union of the early west. this case has nothing to do with computers and any precedents that stem from this case should be struck and nulled from the books.
-- Gregory A. Gilliss Telephone: 1 650 872 2420 Computer Engineering E-mail: greg () gilliss com Computer Security ICQ: 123710561 Software Development WWW: http://www.gilliss.com/greg/ PGP Key fingerprint 2F 0B 70 AE 5F 8E 71 7A 2D 86 52 BA B7 83 D9 B4 14 0E 8C A3 _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
Current thread:
- re - Forgive Me My Trespasses morning_wood (Sep 09)
- Re: Forgive Me My Trespasses (and take it off-list otherwise) Gregory A. Gilliss (Sep 09)