Re: [inbox] Re: Supporters urge halt to hacker's, extradition to US

["James Matthews" <nytrokiss () gmail com>]

7 :p

On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 10:15 PM, rholgstad <rholgstad () gmail com> wrote:

> thanks for this amazing insight. you must be a 5 time cissp
>
> James Matthews wrote:
>
> > When you break into a system using an exploit there is a chance that the
> > shellcode will crash the system.
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 11:03 AM, Exibar <exibar () thelair com <mailto:
> > exibar () thelair com>> wrote:
> >
> >     McKinnon did cause damage:
> >
> >    "The charges include one incident - shortly after the attacks on
> >    September
> >    11 2001 - which brought down a network of 300 computers at the
> >    Earle naval
> >    weapons station. Another raid apparently left 2,000 government
> >    machines in
> >    Washington inoperable."
> >    http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2006/apr/28/hacking.security
> >
> >     A message left by him on a system:
> >
> >    "As part of his quest he left this message on an Army computer in
> >    2002:
> >    "U.S. foreign policy is akin to government-sponsored terrorism these
> >    days.... It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand
> >    down on
> >    September 11 last year ... I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt
> >    at the
> >    highest levels."
> >    http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/08/uk-hacker-gary.html  (and
> >    many
> >    other sources with the same message)
> >
> >     Sure sounds like a criminal that knows what he's doing, and is
> >    doing it
> >    willfully, doesn't it?
> >
> >     Oh yah, and he's really only facing a fine and up to 10 years of
> >    prison
> >    time in the US...  I guess things really are different translating
> >    to the
> >    metric system in the UK...
> >     http://www.fortlewismwr.com/Computer_Fraud_Abuse_Act.htm
> >
> >     Wondering what the maximum term in the UK is for the same crime?
> >     Hold on
> >    to your seat...
> >    LIFE IN PRISON (see next paragraph)
> >
> >    "As the Divisional Court itself pointed out (at para 34), the
> >    gravity of the
> >    offences alleged against the appellant should not be understated: the
> >    equivalent domestic offences include an offence under section 12
> >    of the
> >    Aviation and Maritime Security Act 1990 for which the maximum
> >    sentence is
> >    life imprisonment."
> >
> > http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldjudgmt/jd080730/mckinn-1
> >    .htm
> >    <
> > http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldjudgmt/jd080730/mckinn-1.htm
> > >
> >      That link is a link to the very court brief itself on McKinnin's
> >    appeal
> >    in the UK...
> >
> >      McKinnon should face the charges of computer crime that he's
> >    facing.  He
> >    should, and will, be tried, either in the US or in the UK.  But,
> >    keep in
> >    mind that it is the UK that will extradite him, and it is the UK
> >    that has
> >    ruled that he *should* be extradited for his crimes....
> >
> >
> >    Ok, I'm done now :-)
> >
> >     Exibar
> >
> >
> >    -----Original Message-----
> >    From: full-disclosure-bounces () lists grok org uk
> >    <mailto:full-disclosure-bounces () lists grok org uk>
> >    [mailto:full-disclosure-bounces () lists grok org uk
> >    <mailto:full-disclosure-bounces () lists grok org uk>] On Behalf Of
> >    Kyrian
> >    Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 7:31 AM
> >    To: full-disclosure () lists grok org uk
> >    <mailto:full-disclosure () lists grok org uk>
> >    Subject: [inbox] Re: [Full-disclosure] Supporters urge halt to
> >    hacker's,extradition to US
> >
> >    full-disclosure-request () lists grok org uk
> >    <mailto:full-disclosure-request () lists grok org uk> wrote:
> >    >> "American officials involved in this case have stated that they
> >    want
> >    >> to see him 'fry'."-- BBC.
> >    >>
> >    [IANAL, correct me if I'm wrong, etc, but...]
> >
> >    Yes, that's a large part of the problem.
> >
> >    That courts *can* be bought (usually indirectly via already-bought
> >    officials, or more nasty methods), and that government officials have
> >    said the above makes it worse still.
> >
> >    The thought that US law was apparently changed from requiring
> >    damage to
> >    systems to get a conviction to not requiring such damage, very
> >    recently,
> >    is another problem.
> >
> >    The fact that neither the US or the UK (as far as I'm aware) actually
> >    has a sane enough legal framework for this sort of thing, or enough
> >    police (anyonewho's dealt with the UK's former "High Tech Crime Unit"
> >    will know this), judges (there are many examples of judges being
> >    "out of
> >    touch" in their rulings), etc. who are actually aware enough of the
> >    underlying technology to deal with it sensibly is another.
> >
> >    I agree with whoever said that people should be extradited to the
> >    country in which they caused damage, but not under circumstances like
> >    these, and not when there is no agreed standard of law between the
> >    country the person would be extradited from, and the one they
> >    would go to.
> >
> >    In the UK it still requires damage to be done for it to be a criminal
> >    offense, and that does not seem set to change.
> >
> >    That it is possible to cause damage to (badly managed) systems by
> >    doing
> >    absolutely nothing in a lot of circumstances (as I am finding right
> >    now), that logs can be faked, and that the dividing line between
> >    probes
> >    versus actual hacking attempts is at times a very narrow one, there is
> >    plenty of reason not to agree extradite Gary.
> >
> >    That he's "autistic" is probably neither here nor there, I'm
> >    afraid, as
> >    it seems to be very common for people involved in computing the be
> >    somewhere high on the autistic spectrum (even if they are not
> >    'officially' autistic). I have taken the test. I'm not telling, but I
> >    know what I'm talking about.
> >
> >    So, I shall be there, I won't be shouting or chanting, but I will be
> >    there. I hope that the event is not hijacked by another purpose, and
> >    that I do not get shot by the armed police at the US Embassy there (it
> >    is a scarey looking place, which puts me on edge whenever I'm near).
> >    Strangely I also find myself wondering if the staff there are
> >    paying the
> >    London congestion charge yet, rather than ignoring it...?
> >
> >    Just my 2c, or so.
> >
> >    K.
> >
> >    --
> >    Kev Green, aka Kyrian. E: kyrian&#64;ore.org <http://ore.org> WWW:
> >    http://kyrian.ore.org/
> >    Linux/Security <http://kyrian.ore.org/Linux/Security>
> >    Contractor/LAMP Coder/ISP, via http://www.orenet.co.uk/
> >                    DJ via http://www.hellnoise.co.uk/
> >
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