Full Disclosure mailing list archives
Re: SMS Banking
From: "Thor (Hammer of God)" <Thor () hammerofgod com>
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:05:09 +0000
-----Original Message----- From: Craig S. Wright [mailto:craig.wright () Information-Defense com] Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 10:54 AM To: Thor (Hammer of God); pen-test () securityfocus com; 'full-disclosure' Subject: RE: SMS Banking First, 'Thor', get me sponsored and I will be more than happy to debate you at Defcon. Being in Au, it costs a little more for me to get there than a simple interstate flight.
Surely as the most highly certified security professional in the world you don't need me, a mere working stiff, to find you a sponsor. As the greatest mind on the face of the globe, I'll leave that one for you to figure out.
I am happy to be an egoist. I am not an altruist, I invest, I do not sacrifice. So no insult.
No, we sacrifice for you. Or will, that is, if you or your formulas have anything to do with real human safety.
"Your "risk formula" is ridiculous." Why? How is IT different to all other aspects of life and the world. Why is it sacrosanct and unable to be modelled? As for real experience, I have been doing this over several decades. I may be teaching at CSU (csu.edu.au - gratuitous plug), but that is a side line, not what I do.
Because it fails to take into account simple reality. Risk is assessed as the result of human interaction, not calculated by some formula. Information security is about people as much as it is about technology. Your math fails here, and it fails grievously. Have you ever been in love and acted out of that? If so, then prove it mathematically. Show me the variables that take into account human actions and reactions.
" What number would your formula have yielded 2 weeks before SQL Slammer was released?" The same as at any time before the incident. SQL was a time degrading function similar to the SMS example. The end result is a reliability value [R(t)-> 0] that approaches 0 and is prone to catastrophic failure. The rate of failure being related to the no. of access paths, no. of systems and the number of users.
Exactly. So, before the incident, you would have come up with Some Number and said, "this is your risk." After the incident your number would (hopefully) change to Some Number + Some Other Number, and you could say "Oops. Didn't think of that. Sorry."
"Where is the variable for unpatched systems?" This is a function of both local and remotely accessible services. Some of these are dependant. This calculation has to account for each of these services on the host as well as a vulnerability model for each service. I am publishing a paper on this later in the year. "What number do we plug in for malicious employee factorization?" A prior data from similar industries, areas etc.
So you just take historical data that may or may not have anything to do with anything, and apply it to your formula just because it is what has happened before? Your source is from only reported incidents or discovered incidents? Does it take into account anything of value? Are you saying that with all of your education, and your globally superior intellect, the only value-add you bring is to tell us what has already happened in the past? Seems a bit obvious if you asked me irrespective of the fact that it's basically worthless in the absence of an assessment.
Now, the real issue is that you (thor) seem to have this idea that multiplying risk is a function of multiplying one made up number by another made up number. The 'expert' who cannot be wrong.
Sure I can be wrong. I'm wrong all the time - it gives me an opportunity to learn. And I'm not the one who claims to be an "expert" Craig. Let the readers of this thread look at my site and then yours to make that comparison. The actual proof in one's capacity to learn is simple. No one who has actually done this in a meaningful way would ever think that they can quantify risk with a formula when they haven't even bothered to qualify it. A child can read volumes of books on how to ride a bicycle and immerse themselves in the physics behind balance and force, and the way the cilia of the inner ear works to communicate movement to the brain. But they will NEVER learn how to ride until they get on and start pedaling. Let me know when you stop peddling and start to pedal.
The example spanning this is simple, a single SMS based function with open access. This example was a trivial example in modelling. Firewalls and other choke points make calculations simpler, multiple paths offer complexity. What I see from this is that a lack of understanding = a dangerous level of ignorance.
I could not agree with you more, sir. A lack of understanding does indeed equal a dangerous level of ignorance. Which is why I so look forward to an open debate on this subject where I can hopefully intervene on the adoption of your formulas when human life is at stake. Your formulas can't even be reliably assigned to the SMS model; to apply them to your CIP contributions will certainly be dangerously ignorant.
Like it or not, security is an economic function, pure and simple. There is a cost for all actions and at the end of the day, somebody has to pay. Perfect security is not a goal, optimal security is. They are not the same thing and the later requires better modelling. Welcome to the future, there will be math.
Fine. Let's do it this way then. We'll have someone implement an SMS solution for banking that we don't have anything to do with. I'll assess risk my way, you assess risk with your calculator. Since *someone* has to pay, are you saying that you are willing to assume responsibility for financial losses when your numbers come out wrong? And you actually making my argument for me; YOU are the one who stated this to my question, and I quote: T: "And just how do you come up with the probability of compromising the SMS function and the user authentication method?" C: "Actually, fairly simply using Bayes' formula." So which is it? Is quantifying the probability of compromise "fairly simple using a formula" or is it "not an economic function pure and simple?" T
Regards, ... Dr. Craig S Wright GSE-Malware, GSE-Compliance, LLM, & ... Information Defense Pty Ltd -----Original Message----- From: Thor (Hammer of God) [mailto:Thor () hammerofgod com] Sent: Wednesday, 10 February 2010 4:40 AM To: pen-test () securityfocus com; full-disclosure Cc: craig.wright () Information-Defense com Subject: RE: SMS Banking I'm looping in the FD list because often my replies don't make it to Pen-Test, and this has hit a nerve with me. I've looked over your post at: http://gse-compliance.blogspot.com/2010/02/modelling-risk.html . Once I was able to get past the overwhelming egoism and self- substantiating claims of your contributions to the industry, I arrived at the conclusion that the only portion of the aforementioned page that is not complete drivel and even laughable to anyone who has actually worked towards ascertaining actual risk in production environments, is where you describe your own words as "ravings." Ravings, of course, means "delirious, irrational speech." I'm fine with you sitting back and gloating about the Security Hero award you got from Northcutt, but when I see that you are actually contributing to ANY level of Critical Infrastructure Protection, it makes me fear for anyone who might be counting on your presumed skillset to actually make intelligent decisions about risk where human safety is at stake. Your "risk formula" is ridiculous. What number would your formula have yielded 2 weeks before SQL Slammer was released? Where is the variable for unpatched systems? What number do we plug in for malicious employee factorization? More importantly, where is the calculation for self absorbed snake-oil selling academics with no real experience using their calculator to come up with magic numbers that represent the risk of a nuclear power plant being hacked? Since you are (self-described) as "currently the only GIAC GSE (Compliance) holder globally and the most highly accredited Global Information Security Professional" and thus (presumably, if only in your mind) the greatest security mind in the world, how about accepting a challenge to an open debate on the subject at Defcon? People like you are dangerous and need to be exposed before someone in a position of power actually believes that you know what you are talking about. Bring your abacus. t-----Original Message----- From: Craig S. Wright [mailto:craig.wright () Information-Defense com] Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 3:40 PM To: Thor (Hammer of God); pen-test () securityfocus com; security- basics () securityfocus com Subject: RE: SMS Banking " And just how do you come up with the probability of compromisingtheSMS function and the user authentication method?" Actually, fairly simply using Bayes' formula. I have posted on this at: http://gse-compliance.blogspot.com/2010/02/modelling-risk.html The comment was that GSM itself can be made more secure if it is coupled with another means of securing the transmission. "if one can position one's self anywhere in the transmission chain." This is a select number of locations. It is not everywhere. Thoughthenumber of locations may be large - it is not infinite. It is also not all points on the globe. As can be seen in the post, what the effect of an SMS only based solution is a time degrading function. This is, the longer that the SMSapplicationruns (alone), the greater the risk until eventually, the risk is maximised at certain failure. Adding a second function, such as a non-SMS based sub-function canhelpto mitigate this, but a well chosen sub-function is more effective alone without the addition of the SMS measure and hence a better option. The SMS function alone can befit from a second function, but this is only warranted if the SMS function is an essential process for somereason.Regards, ... Dr. Craig S Wright GSE-Malware, GSE-Compliance, LLM, & ... Information Defense Pty Ltd -----Original Message----- From: listbounce () securityfocus com [mailto:listbounce () securityfocus com] On Behalf Of Thor (Hammer of God) Sent: Tuesday, 9 February 2010 3:15 AM To: pen-test () securityfocus com; security-basics () securityfocus com Subject: RE: SMS Banking And just how do you come up with the probability of compromising the SMS function and the user authentication method? While little formulas may go well in meetings, this hardly helps theOPwith his question. You also failed to note that the overall risk figureyoucalculate has to be compared to something - what are you comparing it to? If P(Compromise) turns out to be 42, what does he do with that information? Regarding GSM, what "far more" information are you talking about?Theaccount number and PIN is all that is needed in the example given by the OP, and that is exactly what one would get from a GSM attack. You should also note that "compromising GSM" is completelyunnecessaryif one does in fact have a select number of locations where the actualGSMsignal is redirected. Cracking GSM itself does NOT require being ata"select number of locations" if one can position one's self anywhereinthe transmission chain. t-----Original Message----- From: listbounce () securityfocus com [mailto:listbounce () securityfocus com] On Behalf Of Craig S. Wright Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 8:06 PM To: 'Markus Matiaschek'; 'M.D.Mufambisi' Cc: pen-test () securityfocus com; security-basics () securityfocus com Subject: RE: SMS Banking The solution needs to be based on risk. Where a system uses an SMS response with a separate system (such asaweb page), the probability that the banking user is compromised and afraudis committed, P(Compromise), can be calculated as: P(Compromise) = P(C.SMS) x P(C.PIN) Where: P(C.SMS) is the probability of compromising the SMS function and P(C.PIN) is the compromise of the user authentication method The user can be compromised by Trojan apps, poor pins that arepastedto a monitor etc. P(C.SMS) and P(C.PIN) are statistically independent and hence wecansimply multiply these two probability functions to gain P(Compromise). The reason for this is that (at present) the SMS and web functions are not the same process and compromising one does not aid in compromising another.Withthe uptake of 4G networks this may change and the function will notremainas simple. It may be possible to compromise GSM, but the truth is that thismustbe done from a select number of locations and the attacker alsorequiresfar more information than the PIN and account number. This makes theattackfar more difficult and far costlier to the attacker. This also means that the attack has to be targeted in place ofscripted(as many bots already are). On the other hand, the probability that an SMS only system can be cracked is simply the P(C.SMS) function and this is far lower than a systemthatdeploys multiple methods. This SMS only means would not be a good means of authentication auser.As a secondary factor, SMS adds complexity. By itself, SMS is a poormeansof controlling risk. Regards, ... Dr. Craig S Wright GSE-Malware, GSE-Compliance, LLM, & ... Information Defense Pty Ltd -----Original Message----- From: listbounce () securityfocus com [mailto:listbounce () securityfocus com] On Behalf Of Markus Matiaschek Sent: Saturday, 6 February 2010 9:08 AM To: M.D.Mufambisi Cc: pen-test () securityfocus com; security-basics () securityfocus com Subject: Re: SMS Banking Hi, I'd just like to make some comments, i didn't think about asolutionfor your problem. First of all i think that my Budi wibowo got something wrongregardingwho is sending the PIN. Second, GSM is cracked: http://reflextor.com/trac/a51 and can be intercepted and decrypted. You should take this into account. Third i think the only farely safe way to make money transfers iswithtransaction numbers, TANs. German banks send mobileTANs to preregistered cell phone numbers to allow a transaction (through online banking though). A "three-way-handshake" with a mTAN should pretty much prevent transactions through spoofed numbers. regards, Markus Matiaschek Absolute IT Consulting S.A. San José, Costa Rica ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Securing Apache Web Server with thawte Digital Certificate In this guide we examine the importance of Apache-SSL and who needsanSSL certificate. We look at how SSL works, how it benefits yourcompanyand how your customers can tell if a site is secure. You will find out howtotest, purchase, install and use a thawte Digital Certificate on yourApacheweb server. Throughout, best practices for set-up are highlighted tohelpyou ensure efficient ongoing management of your encryption keys anddigitalcertificates.http://www.dinclinx.com/Redirect.aspx?36;4175;25;1371;0;5;946;e13b6be442f727 d1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This list is sponsored by: Information Assurance CertificationReviewBoard Prove to peers and potential employers without a doubt that you can actually do a proper penetration test. IACRB CPT and CEPT certsrequirea full practical examination in order to become certified. http://www.iacertification.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Securing Apache Web Server with thawte Digital Certificate In this guide we examine the importance of Apache-SSL and who needsanSSL certificate. We look at how SSL works, how it benefits your company and how your customers can tell if a site is secure. You will find out how to test, purchase, install and use a thawte Digital Certificate on your Apache web server. Throughout, best practices for set-up are highlighted to help you ensure efficient ongoing management of your encryption keys anddigitalcertificates.http://www.dinclinx.com/Redirect.aspx?36;4175;25;1371;0;5;946;e13b6be442f727 d1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Current thread:
- Re: Risk measurements, (continued)
- Re: Risk measurements John Lightfoot (Feb 12)
- Re: Risk measurements Craig S Wright (Feb 13)
- Re: Risk measurements Valdis . Kletnieks (Feb 12)
- Re: Risk measurements Craig S Wright (Feb 13)
- Re: Risk measurements Thor (Hammer of God) (Feb 12)
- Re: Risk measurements Craig S. Wright (Feb 13)
- Re: Risk measurements Thor (Hammer of God) (Feb 12)
- Re: Risk measurements Craig S Wright (Feb 13)
- Re: SMS Banking Christian Sciberras (Feb 11)
- Re: SMS Banking Thor (Hammer of God) (Feb 09)
- Re: SMS Banking Craig S. Wright (Feb 10)
- Re: SMS Banking Thor (Hammer of God) (Feb 09)
- Re: SMS Banking Craig S. Wright (Feb 10)