funsec mailing list archives
Re: Apparently Milgram is still right
From: "Tomas L. Byrnes" <tomb () byrneit net>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 16:40:22 -0800
Which, given that the resistance of the body to which the current is applied is relatively constant, is dependent on the voltage, up to the maximum current the power supply can deliver. In terms of delivering pain, voltage and pulse width can have more of an effect than raw current, which effectively works by cooking. IE: You can deliver lots of pain for little physical damage using the "correct" circuit. Not advocating torture, just pointing out that the physics are at least as complex as the ethics.
-----Original Message----- From: Blue Boar [mailto:BlueBoar () thievco com] Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 10:19 AM To: Tomas L. Byrnes Cc: Gadi Evron; Alex Eckelberry; funsec () linuxbox org; Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah; cissp-ethics () yahoogroups com Subject: Re: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right It's not the volts, it's the amps. BB Tomas L. Byrnes wrote:The experiment is a dual one: 1: How far can someone be manipulated. 2: Are people really such sheep? My unscientific gut says that if you took the sample primarily fromtheUS Military, you'd get lots of demurs. The average Joe doesn't know what voltage is likely to hurt, or whatthelaws of land warfare are. I think all this proves is that humans are highly influenced by their social environment.-----Original Message----- From: Gadi Evron [mailto:ge () linuxbox org] Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 11:04 PM To: Alex Eckelberry Cc: Tomas L. Byrnes; Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah; funsec () linuxbox org; cissp-ethics () yahoogroups com Subject: RE: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Alex Eckelberry wrote:True, and there is a point of ethics vs. morals. But in the end, there's a line that, IMHO, shouldn't be crossed.The participants themselves were manipulated. Their ethics are fine, they are simply not aware of what's going on or how to resist it. Smart people as we may be, we all treat dozens of thingsautomatically,which can be abused. Belief in authority is one thing.. training for suspended disbelief in movies is another. The ethical issue here is the experiment being conducted.Besides, at a purely ethical level, torture is a low-quality interrogation technique. It's overrated in its effectiveness, and creates boomerang effects which don't benefit an overall cause. Nevertheless, even arguing torture at a logical level is difficultforme. It's just reprehensible, not because of some pacificistideology:Because beating the living shit out of someone for informationbringsusto the level of animals, and that's what we've been trying to
evolve
from for a very long time. Something Matthew Alexander spoke and wrote of recently: http://snipurl.com/8wosv Alex -----Original Message----- From: funsec-bounces () linuxbox org[mailto:funsec-bounces () linuxbox org]On Behalf Of Tomas L. Byrnes Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 8:19 PM To: Gadi Evron; Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah Cc: funsec () linuxbox org; cissp-ethics () yahoogroups com Subject: Re: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right I guess it depends on who you think you owe an ethical duty to,doesn'tit.-----Original Message----- From: funsec-bounces () linuxbox org [mailto:funsec-bounces () linuxbox org]On Behalf Of Gadi Evron Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 4:11 PM To: Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah Cc: funsec () linuxbox org; cissp-ethics () yahoogroups com Subject: Re: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannahwrote:People are still willing to torture people, when told to do so byanauthority.http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/-/2/hi/health/7791278.stm This may explain some recent happenings, but it is stilldisturbing,nonetheless.We in infosec, and members of society as a whole, have to pushharderon theethics front.What does this have to do with ethics? It's a trick question, think before answering. :)====================== (quote inserted randomly by PegasusMailer)rslade () vcn bc ca slade () victoria tc carslade () computercrime orgThis day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that Ihaveset before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life.... - Deuteronomy30:19victoria.tc.ca/techrev/rms.htmblogs.securiteam.com/index.php/archives/author/p1/_______________________________________________ Fun and Misc security discussion for OT posts. https://linuxbox.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/funsec Note: funsec is a public and open mailing list._______________________________________________ Fun and Misc security discussion for OT posts. https://linuxbox.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/funsec Note: funsec is a public and open mailing list._______________________________________________ Fun and Misc security discussion for OT posts. https://linuxbox.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/funsec Note: funsec is a public and open mailing list._______________________________________________ Fun and Misc security discussion for OT posts. https://linuxbox.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/funsec Note: funsec is a public and open mailing list.
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Current thread:
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right, (continued)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Alex Eckelberry (Dec 19)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Tomas L. Byrnes (Dec 19)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Gadi Evron (Dec 19)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Tomas L. Byrnes (Dec 19)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Gadi Evron (Dec 19)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Tomas L. Byrnes (Dec 19)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Tomas L. Byrnes (Dec 19)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Gadi Evron (Dec 19)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Paul Ferguson (Dec 19)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Blue Boar (Dec 22)
- Re: Apparently Milgram is still right Tomas L. Byrnes (Dec 22)