Re: idea

[RandallM <randallm () fidmail com>]

This seems to be what everyone is missing:

 "GETTING TO A HELPLESS PERSON WHO'S COMPUTER IS UNABLE TO REACH ANY SITE OR
DOWNLOAD ANY PROGRAM TO AID THEM".

Thus, we have thought on "obfuscation" of the links to such sites and or
tools. Any "www.malware-help.com" DNS common sites are "blocked".

"AV-CLOUDS", "DNSSEC" do not provide for "after" the infection of those that
have not received "clients" or "resolvers" prior to infections. They are
real problems NOW!

How does Grandma get help? She takes to "such and such" for $200 dollar who
for get to say "oh, take your family pics off", wipe her drive and reload
the pc. She tryed to go to AV and other scan sites but instead the browser
took her to "wifes lonely and horny".

Understand now?

On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 5:27 PM, Ben Li <banjili () gmail com> wrote:

> Hi Rick,
>
> It would be great to have that as a problem, since that means the AV app is
> running on the infected machine. If I can get my resolver on to the infected
> machine, I can also get an AV app on to the machine. The limitation we're
> trying to solve is how to get the AV app on to the machine, when the malware
> is actively preventing (through breaking DNS) known AV apps from being
> obtained from the regular sources. You're right in that AV apps would
> benefit if they carried their own resolvers (and doing so would make some of
> the apps we've tested somewhat more robust), but the basic limitation we're
> addressing occurs before that point.
>
> -Ben
>
>
>
> Rick Wesson wrote:
>
> > Ben,
> >
> > If you carry your own resolver libs with you AV application you might be
> > able to
> > mitigate this -- or at least detect when the HOSTS file has one of your
> > entries
> > in it.
> >
> > -rick
> >
> > Ben Li wrote:
> >
> >
> > > As far as I can tell, Windows 7 will be the first version of that
> > > operating system to support DNSSEC, and I look forward to seeing AV
> > > vendors and many others embrace it. Even with DNSSEC, however, I suspect
> > > that malware will still be able to make specific DNSSEC-enabed domains
> > > _inaccessible_ through the local hosts file, and rogue DNS/DHCP servers
> > > and the like. The idea we're exploring is to remove any dependency on
> > > DNS for the specific purpose of delivering AV programs to the gazillions
> > > of existing XP and older Windows desktops which are already infected,
> > > and cannot get to an AV vendor site to obtain AV software.
> > >
> > > -Ben
> > >
> > >
> > > Rick Wesson wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > Why not use a private root and use DNSSEC to do the validation of the
> > > > FQDN. AV
> > > > vendors could even use their own roots and test that looking up their
> > > > addresses
> > > > were correct. At least the AV software would be able to tell that the
> > > > DNS was
> > > > messed up.
> > > >
> > > > There are DNSSEC enabled TLDs -- you could start there.
> > > >
> > > > -rick
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ben Li wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I think this is a discussion about two related parts of a single
> > > > > problem. CouldAV addresses the area of detecting and preventing
> > > > > infections through a great new way to analyse and track binary
> > > > > executables and processes, while Randall's concern seems to be about
> > > > > getting AV tools on to known infected machines that actively resist
> > > > > efforts to install/use AV tools.
> > > > >
> > > > > The present solution concept proposes to break one form of resistance
> > > > > which prevents the infected machine from locating and/or installing
> > > > > AV tools from the Internet, by moving a pointer resolution function
> > > > > (AVpublisher.tld -> IP address) normally provided by DNS (and
> > > > > corrupted by installed malware) into a different layer and space
> > > > > which is not blockable at all by a malware. So far, our preliminary
> > > > > proof-of-concept work indicates that it would be possible to bypass
> > > > > untrustable host name resolution functions to deliver AV tools (such
> > > > > as CloudAV or anything else) to infected machines.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Ben
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Tomas L. Byrnes wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > The concept of distributed/cloudAV has been worked on by the
> > > > > > University
> > > > > > of Michigan crew that did the fundamental work that led to Arbor
> > > > > > Networks:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.eecs.umich.edu/fjgroup/cloudav/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's similar in detection concept to Sunbelt's new product in that it
> > > > > > uses multiple engines, and to the current discussion in that it is a
> > > > > > distributed system.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: funsec-bounces () linuxbox org [mailto:
> > > > > > > funsec-bounces () linuxbox org]
> > > > > > > On Behalf Of Alex Eckelberry
> > > > > > > Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 8:26 AM
> > > > > > > To: Ben Li; funsec () linuxbox org
> > > > > > > Cc: RandallM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [funsec] idea
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 1) The previous suggestion of housing the payload in a widely
> > > > > > > > available and widely distributed system (Akami) is wise. Google,
> > > > > > > > Wikipedia, twitter, facebook, blogs, hotmail and at least several
> > > > > > > > other popular websites must remain accessible on the infected
> > > > > > > > machine
> > > > > > > > in order for the user not to reformat it, thereby killing the
> > > > > > > > infection.
> > > > > > > It's worth noting that virtually all of the antimalware vendors use a
> > > > > > > CDN -- Symantec uses Akamai, we use Edgecast, etc.  Most antimalware
> > > > > > > vendors use a different cname for their downloads (like
> > > > > > > download.sunbeltsoftware.com or live.symantec.com).  Maybe there's
> > > > > > > something fruitful there in terms of changing DNS, but like Ben, I
> > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > share a concern that this can backfire.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And, as Ben infers, any solution will have to take into account that
> > > > > > > blocks occur through a wide range of methods, not the least of which
> > > > > > are
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > host file modifications, router DNS hacks, local DNS hacks, etc. In
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > end, though, I'm still not quite sure about how one would implement
> > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > one of these ideas.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It's an interesting discussion nonetheless.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Alex
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Fun and Misc security discussion for OT posts.
> > > > > https://linuxbox.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/funsec
> > > > > Note: funsec is a public and open mailing list.


-- 
been great, thanks
Big R a.k.a System

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