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IP: Two interesting notes on Blind Signatures Digital Cash in
From: Dave Farber <farber () cis upenn edu>
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 18:27:50 -0500
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:19:11 -0500 From: Robert Hettinga <rah () shipwright com> : : So, I'm talking to somebody from Russia about the wonders of digital bearer settlement recently :-), and this morning he comes back to me saying he's starting to hear of several people there who are planning on issuing Chaumian blind signature digital cash, with payee anonymity, even. I don't know if they're denominating things in dollars, or rubles, or what, and I certainly don't know if this is really true, which is why I'm here asking you guys here about it. I always thought (though I now don't know why I think so) that the blind signature patent holds in Russia, but, as the world's only um, anarchocapitalist, society ;-), Russians may honor patents in the breach more often than not. Lots of out of work cryptographers in Russia, I bet. I mean, they did Tetris, and Elvis+ (such as it was; their failure was our fault, not theirs), could RussoDollars be next? I'm not saying that Russia's a cakewalk these days, but it *is* interesting to note the current Russian state (or lack thereof) is about as old as the commercial internet, that not many people use Moscow city phone system because there are 22 voraciously competing cellphone companies, etc., and, finally, that Moscow has *lots* of Cirrus ATM machines, which means that our money can go there. :-). In the interest of brevity, we'll ignore their, um, geodesic market for armed personal force for the time being, but maybe things have calmed down now that their mafia has figured out they can do all the "hostile" bank takeovers they want, but ownership doesn't a bank make... Anyway, I haven't heard of a Russian ecash licensee, certainly. Does anyone on these lists know of anyone in Russia -- or anywhere else in the old Soviet Union -- who's doing fully anonymous Chaumian blind-signature digital cash, with a patent license or not? If done in dollars, all that seignorage, and there would be bunches just in Russia alone, would be a boon for the Russian balance of payments account, certainly. In addition to Russians not having to haul those pictures of Ben around, Americans, and the rest of the world, for that matter, could start to safely keep and spend their cash on the net, while, of course, earning some Russian entrepreneur both purchase premia and seignorage. Irony, thy name might be Russia? Naaawwww.... Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah () shipwright com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From: "Maksim Otstavnov" <maksim () volga net> To: Robert Hettinga <rah () shipwright com> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:16:49 +0400 CC: cryptography () c2 net, dbs () philodox com, e$@vmeng.com, dcsb () ai mit edu (In fact, I'm not on the list the original msg CC:'ed to, but I think my comments on Bob's msg can be useful enough to forgive my netiquette violation. Anybody interested is welcome to answer personally.)
So, I'm talking to somebody from Russia about the wonders of digital bearer settlement recently :-), and this morning he comes back to me saying he's starting to hear of several people there who are planning on issuing Chaumian blind signature digital cash, with payee anonymity, even.
The first prototype (PayCash by Tavrichesky Bank) is live at http://195.5.138.171 and those who read Russian are welcome. I hope the English version of the site contents and software will be available soon.
I don't know if they're denominating things in dollars, or rubles, or what, and I certainly don't know if this is really true, which is why I'm here asking you guys here about it.
Their current denomination is "petty rubles", "petty yens", "petty dollars" and "petty liras". With petty banking and exchange, of course.
I always thought (though I now don't know why I think so) that the blind signature patent holds in Russia, but, as the world's only um, anarchocapitalist, society ;-), Russians may honor patents in the breach more often than not.
Algorithms are not pantentable in Russia. Programs, chips topologies and databases are protected as copyrighted stuff.
I'm not saying that Russia's a cakewalk these days, but it *is* interesting to note the current Russian state (or lack thereof) is about as old as the
commercial internet, that not many people use Moscow city phone system because there are 22 voraciously competing cellphone companies,
MGTS (formerely Moscow state phote monopoly) still has some 90% of Moscow market. Introducing of per-time charges on local calls this year may change this.
In the interest of brevity, we'll ignore their, um, geodesic market for armed personal force for the time being, but maybe things have calmed down now that their mafia has figured out they can do all the "hostile" bank takeovers they want, but ownership doesn't a bank make...
Armed personal force is distributed rather in feudal centralized model than geodesically... in Russia as well as anywhere else, alas...
Anyway, I haven't heard of a Russian ecash licensee, certainly.
I heard of several banks and financial companies who tried to apply for ecash(tm) license but negotiations failed. (I have no first-hand evidence though). I humbly think there is something wrong with DigiCash's terms. With all respect for DigiCash technological excellence and Dr. Chaum's distinguished role in "privacy marketing", their PR... aren't the best PR I have seen ;) One more comment: we actully don't need the full interoperability. If Tavrichesky or anybody else issue "real" currency, it would be enough to have a market of secondary services of exchanges, e.g. Tavrichesky's erubles to MTB's edollars, or MTB's edollars to Tavrichesky edollars etc. The exchanges might be located in some friendly jurisdiction - Anguilla, to say, or Grand Cayman. Another comment: current Russian banking rules do not allow fully anonymous banking. But there is at least one ex-Soviet jurisdiction allowing and encouraging it, Ukraine. (I'm not sure of Baltic states, Latvia being the most probable candidate).
If done in dollars, all that seignorage, and there would be bunches just in Russia alone, would be a boon for the Russian balance of payments account, certainly.
Really? Anybody can audit _national_ payment balance concerning anonymous ecash? ;) But if there are any realistic arguments (on how to improve national payments balance by encouraging anonymous DBSs) I will discuss them with Central Bank officials. One opportunity is to have Russian Central Bank to back private banks' e-currency (according to Lysyanskaya/Ramzan recently proposed architecture, or anything alike). Though, ceteris paribus, I would prefer experimenting with fully private currencies ;) Just much more fun.
In addition to Russians not having to haul those pictures of Ben around, Americans, and the rest of the world, for that matter, could start to safely keep and spend their cash on the net, while, of course, earning some Russian entrepreneur both purchase premia and seignorage.
An interesting question: who have seinorage on eurodollars? Might "an enterpreneur" in question be the Gov (either federal, or, to say, Moscow)?
Irony, thy name might be Russia?
You're virtually welcome... Thank you Bob for initiating this topic! Cheers, -- Maksim Otstavnov <maksim () volga net> http://www.ice.ru/otstavnov/ -- - chief, Labs of Civil & Financial Crypto -- - editor, "CompuNomika" monthly -- - maintainer of The Russian PGP HomePage
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