more on More strange statistics from the Department of Defense (about Hummers)

[David Farber <dave () farber net>]

Begin forwarded message:

From: Joe Pistritto <jcp () jcphome com>
Date: July 6, 2005 5:23:53 PM EDT
To: dave () farber net
Subject: Re: [IP] More strange statistics from the Department of  
Defense (about Hummers)


According to this:
http://mediamatters.org/items/200412160015

The number of Humvees in Iraq is 16,000 in December 2004 counting all  
the armored ones. (level one or level two).   There are certainly  
some completely un-armored ones as well.   I think we can safely  
assume this source is not pro-administration.

As an owner of a Hummer H1 (essentially the same thing as an  
unarmored Humvee), $20K for a bolt on armor kit isnt unusual.  The  
winch kit for the H1 has a list price of almost $10K and that's not a  
mil spec part.   (it has the winch itself, plus replaces the bumper  
with a heavy duty version and the front springs becuase the thing is  
heavier).  When you do the armor kit, you would have to do the  
springs as well (on front *and* rear).  To hold up the extra weight.   
(the bolt on armor kit weighs between 1000 and 2000 lbs. depending on  
which components the military puts in it's level two armor kit).   
Given that its the government and they're in a hurry, $20K each for  
10K armor kits seems pretty likely.   Then the 6000 or so new Level  
One Hummvees probably cost $150K each (at least).  Totally unarmored  
civilian Hummers list for $110K, again, no mil spec parts, and no  
accessories the military tends to buy.
A number of civilian H-1s have been up-armored by private companies,  
and this is the technique they use.  I would not feel *really safe*  
driving a Hummer with kevlar doors, Lexan windows, and the 1/2 inch  
thick armor panel on the bottom which is the typical "low level"  
armor protection kit next to an IED with a couple of mortar shells in  
it, for instance.  Although someone shooting at you with a handgun or  
a light rifle will likely be frustrated.

Level One Humvees are built with the armor capability from the ground  
up - different components are used.   There were very few Level One  
vehicles before Iraqi Freedom. (I think about 200).  It was largely  
an experimental program at the time.   But then the Hummer/Humvee  
isn't a tank - in combat it wasn't supposed to be driving around  
where it could get shot at with heavy weapons.   Armored doors and  
floor pan were added (the basis of the level two kit) for those  
situations where small arms fire was likely.  It was never intended  
the Hummers would be taking RPG fire, or large calibre artillery  
shells (which form the basis of a lot of IEDs).  Having worked at BRL  
in the past, when you're talking armor protection against battlefield  
type weapons, you're in a whole different class of armor than you see  
welded onto most HMMWV's in Iraq.

The total production of Humvees/HMMWV's of all types is here:

http://www.amgeneral.com/vehicles_hmmwv_background.php/amSid/ 
53d85bcea5a8ae182d2ebb154f259a13

In particular 100,000 were produced for the US government through  
1993 (starting in 1983)  Not all of those are military, the Forest  
Service and some other agencies also use them, but most are probably  
in the military. M998A2 Humvees (which share the same engine my H1  
has, original military vehicles used a slightly smaller engine) have  
been produced since 2000 at the rate of approximately 4000/year  
(31,474 over 7 years).   During those years, between 1000 and 2000  
Hummer H1 civilian vehicles were produced each year on the same  
assembly line. (in 1994, the year mine was produced, there were only  
about 870 civilian H1s produced).  No civilian Hummers were produced  
at all before 1992.  And yes, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger does indeed  
own the very first civilian one.

As you might have noticed if you go by a Hummer dealer, there are  
almost no civilian H-1s now.   Since we know we've made 6000 fully  
armored new ones in the last year and a half, that probably accounts  
for nearly the entire pre-war production rate of the *one* factory  
that makes Hummer H-1s.  I suspect they can double production at that  
plant, which might mean we're making as many as 10K per year at the  
moment (I have not seen this number publicly quoted).  We have to  
replace losses (whihc have been > 1000 vehicles at this point I  
believe).    (the popular Hummer H-2 vehicle is produced in a  
different factory purpose built for that vehicle and is based on a  
non-military frame.)  This factory is located in South Bend, Indiana,  
they used to give tours of it, stop by if you're there.  Maybe you'll  
buy one of your own!

Thanks,
 -jcp-



----- Original Message ----- From: "David Farber" <dave () farber net>
To: "Ip ip" <ip () v2 listbox com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 1:52 PM
Subject: [IP] More strange statistics from the Department of Defense



> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: Robert Lee <robertslee () verizon net>
> Date: July 5, 2005 11:37:54 PM EDT
> To: dave () farber net
> Subject: More strange statistics from the Department of Defense
> Reply-To: robertslee () verizon net
>
>
> For IP, if not too caustic.
>
>
> http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?  
> type=politicsNews&storyID=2005-07-05T213209Z_01_N05155078_RTRIDST_0_PO 
> LI TICS-SECURITY-USA-WARS-DC.XML
>
>
>
> Military brass rethinking two war strategy.  In supporting  
> possible  need to rethink they state:
>
>
> “A senior Army officer noted that many of the more than 1,700 U.S.   
> troops who lost their lives in Iraq died because the military had  
> not anticipated the need to spend hundreds of millions of dollars  
> on  armor to protect military vehicles against improvised  
> explosive  devices.”
>
>
> These are the armor kits that caused Rumsfeld to embarrass  
> himself.   A reporter asked why the Humvees were not armored and  
> Rumsfeld, who  never fought in a war, said, “We fight with the army  
> we have, not  with the army we want.” He then went on to say that  
> the government  was having them made as fast as they could but that  
> there was a  bottleneck at production. Rumsfeld reported that in  
> this great  nation we could source only 200 per month.
>
>
> The very next day the manufacturers of the armor said there was no  
> bottleneck, the Department of Defense was simply refusing to buy  
> them  as fast as they could be made.  Which, of course, passed the  
> smell  test. After all, the soldiers themselves, in their off  
> hours, were  making several dozen of them each month out of scrap.
>
>
> In the article below the general tries to say that armoring these   
> humvees costs “hundreds of millions of dollars”.  Let’s examine  
> this  just a tad. Let’s say that “hundreds of millions of dollars  
> is more  than one hundred million and less than five hundred  
> million.  How  about three hundred million?  Now if we had 300  
> hundred million  Humvees every armor set would cost $1.  If we had  
> 3 million each  would cost $100.  If we had 1 million each one  
> would cost $300.  Do  we have 1 million humvees there?  No.  We do  
> not have 1 million  people there.  We have about 150,000 people  
> there. So if everyone  has a humvee then the armor kits cost  
> $2,000.  But we do not have  150,000 humvees there.  If we had  
> 15,000 then each set would cost  $20,000.  But we do not have  
> 15,000 humvees there and $20,000 per set  of cold rolled seems a  
> tad high already.  Do we have 1,500?  Then each set costs $200,000  
> (more than the humvee).
>
>
> All of which begs the question, did the army truly think that as in  
> Belgium at the end of WWII beautiful women would dance out of   
> doorways and stuff roses down the barrels of the guns?  That is  
> what  Rumsfeld said.  Did he mean it?
>
>
> Oh well, best not to go further and risk not being a patriot.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Robert Lee
>
>
>
>
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