more on Who they're spying on

[David Farber <dave () farber net>]

Begin forwarded message:

From: L Jean Camp <ljeanc () gmail com>
Date: June 9, 2006 1:46:26 PM EDT
To: dave () farber net
Cc: ip () v2 listbox com
Subject: Re: [IP] more on Who they're spying on
Reply-To: ljean () ljean com

The implicit argument is that we have to give up a free society in
order to defeat terrorists.  You propose that we decide how long we
will give up living in a free society, or perhaps how long we might
live in a surveillance society. Or maybe what percent of freedom we
might give up.

Any post that has as this its implicit assumption is unlikely to find
a detailed argument as a response. The responses did not reject your
call for dialogue, but the premise of that dialogue.

External attacks are a risk to us all. Abuse of power is a risk to us
all. A free society has a different balance of risk than a
surveillance society, not more overall risk.

To put it in the kind of "story line" terms to popular with the media
types such as yourself:

1. If my beloved were kidnapped, I would want anyone who might
possibly be connected to be picked up AND killed  AND tortured to save
the life and suffering of the one I love.

2. I would never want to live in a society where my dearest could be
picked up and tortured on the smallest chance that they might possibly
be connected and know something about someone else's kidnapped
beloved.

3. We cannot have both 1 and 2.

There is no simple  inverse proportional relationship between freedom
and risk, except for that long term protection of civil rights in an
open society makes the most people most safe and most free. You are
asking us to pretend we can have 1) and not 2).

The problem was the nonsense in your question, not the responding  
dialogue.

On 6/8/06, David Farber <dave () farber net> wrote:
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: h_bray () globe com
> Date: June 8, 2006 12:51:52 PM EDT
> To: Tom Fairlie <tfairlie () frontiernet net>, dave () farber net
> Subject: Re: [IP] more on Who they're spying on
>
> Some members of this list seem more eager to engage in bitter
> denunciation
> of the present administration, than to offer ideas about how best to
> reconcile the conflicting interests of freedom and security.
>
> It doesn't make the slightest difference who's in the White House, or
> who's
> in control of Congress.  Fanatic Islamic terrorists will keep right on
> trying to kill us, as they are trying to murder Canadians,  
> Indonesians,
> Frenchmen, Filipinos, Spaniards, Sudanese, Somalis, and pretty much
> anyone
> else who rejects their vision of the world.  The Clinton era gave us a
> series of brutal islamic terror attacks on US interests, including the
> first WTC bombing.  And when Bush is gone, Muslim fanatics will  
> continue
> trying to kill Americans.  No matter who you vote for, the problem  
> isn't
> going away.  So we'd better think seriously about the best ways to
> defend
> our country.
>
> We're up against murderers who use sophisticated covert tactics,
> designed
> to let them hide their activities and intentions until they strike.
> They
> rely upon the free institutions of liberal societies to help them in
> this.
> Therefore, many of their activities cannot be prevented by
> traditional law
> enforcement techniques, which are rightly constrained by rules that  
> set
> firm limits on police power.
>
> Fighting such people, therefore, requires the use of new tactics  
> beyond
> those normally used by police organizations.  Yet these tactics can  
> also
> erode the liberty and privacy rights which we take for granted.  How
> do we
> strike the right balance?
>
> I'd have thought that a listserv like this one, crammed with serious
> thinkers, might address the matter seriously.  If the members believe
> that
> the current approach is all wrong, they could do us all a lot of  
> good by
> laying out an alternative plan.  I hoped my post would inspire just
> such a
> discussion.
>
> Guess not.
>
> Hiawatha Bray


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