Interesting People mailing list archives
Re: ALSO MUST READ NYTimes.com: Charging by the Byte to Curb Internet Traffic "People seem to be missing the point."
From: David Farber <dave () farber net>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 13:03:51 -0700
________________________________________ From: Marc Aniballi | Personal [marcaniballi () gmail com] Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 3:48 PM To: David Farber Subject: RE: [IP] Re: ALSO MUST READ NYTimes.com: Charging by the Byte to Curb Internet Traffic "People seem to be missing the point." Hello Dave; I find this scarcity to be "odd." A little back of the napkin calculation says that your average 5Mb/s broadband connection could provide you with about 1.5 TB of download capacity per month. (~375 DVD images or 2000 DivX movies) - Now I know that Telco provisioning is based on the idea that your 5Mb/s capacity can be "shared" among many customers and is therefore not a "committed" 5Mb/s unlimited full-time bitrate - but what exactly do they consider a "reasonable" amount of sharing? 10:1? 100:1? More?!!! 10 or 20:1 still gets the average consumer WAY more content than they can likely watch in a month (20-40 DVDs or 100-200 Divx movies!). Most consumers are quite happy to wait for a download vs. real-time streaming when the price point of the connectivity reflects the difference, but the difference should be spelled out as a CIR (Committed information rate) with the "speed" being the burstable maximum over short periods or periods of low congestion. If I had a choice between 2Mb/s CIR with 5Mb/s burst and 1Mb/s CIR with 25Mb/s burst - I would select the higher CIR because I do not care about "streaming" - I can wait to buffer or download. Others might select differently - but this is a clear method of "pricing" that reflects the service being offered, allows the user to audit the SLA without any trust of the provider, and it has been in place on leased lines for decades. P2P and YouTube would cause no upsets to an infrastructure that was built/managed/billed this way. WHAT you do with your purchased CONNECTIVITY is up to you and none of the ISP's business (I'll ignore fascist considerations here). Marc Aniballi This e-mail is intended solely for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any review, dissemination, copying, printing or other use of this e-mail by persons or entities other than the addressee is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender immediately and delete the material from any computer. -----Original Message----- From: David Farber [mailto:dave () farber net] Sent: June-15-08 3:09 PM To: ip Subject: [IP] Re: ALSO MUST READ NYTimes.com: Charging by the Byte to Curb Internet Traffic "People seem to be missing the point." ________________________________________ From: Bob Frankston [bob37-2 () bobf frankston com] Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 2:48 PM To: David Farber; 'ip' Cc: 'Roger Bohn'; 'Dave Burstein' Subject: RE: [IP] ALSO MUST READ NYTimes.com: Charging by the Byte to Curb Internet Traffic "People seem to be missing the point." I do have three broadband pipes – RCN, Comcast, FiOS and while competition does slowly work its magic it’s basically more of the same – until the whole model collapses. There really is no magic and there is no real scarcity either. We keep getting sucked into a false battle over scarcity and let ourselves be pitted against our neighbors who are stealing bandwidth from us. We miss the larger point. We don’t even think of asking why we are billed for wireless connectivity – we’re too fixated on broadband. The problem is in the model that forces us into corralling bits into narrow billable paths and we’re not allowed to be owners and invest in capacity. Cellular phones are a good example of creating scarcity – why do they have to go through the constrictions of towards? Apple was able to support 10,000 MAC (Mac MACs?) at WWDC at Moscone using 802.11 without creating billable events. If having your own fiber costs $1000 (before Moore’s law) then why do you care what your neighbor is doing. You don’t solve this by creating in incentive to create scarcity by creating a usage charge – you provide the opportunity for individuals and/or the community to buy more capacity – just like within the homes. Why do we make streaming video the defining application? If you don’t have the capacity to watch an HD real time stream then dynamically adapt or do buffering. Don’t impose a morality tax on your neighbor because you want to use bad algorithms. The networks are getting this and using smarter ways to send video despite the problems in the middle – as Dave Burstein has noted – that’s the real worry for the carriers – not sharing home movies. This fixation on video forces us to tolerate billable wireless and that does real damage in leaving us disconnected except when in front of our TV/PC screens. http://www.frankston.com/public/rss.xml -----Original Message----- From: David Farber [mailto:dave () farber net] Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 13:09 To: ip Subject: [IP] ALSO MUST READ NYTimes.com: Charging by the Byte to Curb Internet Traffic "People seem to be missing the point." ________________________________________ From: Roger Bohn [Rbohn () ucsd edu] Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 11:13 AM To: David Farber Cc: Bob.Frankston () indigo pobox com; "[bob37-2 () bobf frankston com]"@indigo.pobox.com; Michael.O'Dell () indigo pobox com; "[mo () ccr org]"@indigo.pobox.com Subject: Re: [IP] MUST READ NYTimes.com: Charging by the Byte to Curb Internet Traffic "People seem to be missing the point." Regarding the reaction to the NY Times article and the whole subject of charging by the byte, let me point out that the correct way to charge for scarcity of bandwidth is ALSO something that many readers of this list will distrust.
From: Michael O'Dell [mo () ccr org]
Since bit *rate*, not bit mass, is the instantaneously-exhaustable
resource in packet network, if they were actually worried about
network engineering, they'd be going to the burstable charging
model which is known to worth both technically and economically.
it relates the charges directly to the exhaustion of the
finite resource - bit *rate*, not bit mass. Mr. O'Dell is correct about rate, but the scarce resource here is _congestion_ flows, which are highly variable. The correct (economically, and in my modestly informed opinion technically) way to charge for these is with some form of spot pricing, i.e. prices that change in real time and with location. When there's no congestion, no matter how much bandwidth someone currently uses the charge should be zero. Conversely, when your neighbors are running real-time movies via IP, both you and they should be charged congestion fees for whatever each of you is doing. Even if you did not "cause" the congestion, your usage is exacerbating it for everyone. The easiest analogy is to cellular phones, which have gone as far as a two-level time-of-day price (free/ not free), but otherwise stayed away from a "burstable charging model." Electricity sellers are starting to play with spot prices. But in general they are viewed as out of the question for consumers because of the uncertainty and variability they introduce. Your monthly payment becomes even harder to predict than with a pure charge for bytes.* So like Network Neutrality, this is a case of "be careful what you ask for...." How many of IP's readers would like to give some kind of real-time pricing power to their ISP? Imagine the problems of auditing your bill to ensure that it was correct, for example. Solvable technically, but when there is a rapacious quasi-monopolist writing the bills it would require a lot of trust. So a time-of-day based surcharge for bytes seems like a reasonable compromise between tractability and theoretical optimality. This is not what Comcast is proposing, though, which lends credence to the theories that they have a very different agenda than what they claim. Long-term solution: We need a third source of high-bandwidth to the home - probably nothing less will get the ISPs to behave. This would also, most likely, solve the net neutrality problem without a lot of dangerous micro-regulation of what behavior is acceptable. Roger *(Doing spot pricing economically correctly for the Internet would be harder than for cellular, because of end-to-end issues, which can lead to a lot of nonsense about capacity reservations, "fair queuing," and the rest. Hans-Werner Braun, KC Claffy, and I wrote a paper about end-to-end spot pricing in the mid 90s. If they are only worried about local congestion, though, as the Comcasts of the world imply in their PR, then backbone and other-end congestion can be ignored.) ------------------------------------------- Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/247/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/247/ Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com ------------------------------------------- Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/247/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/247/ Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1503 - Release Date: 14/06/2008 6:02 PM ------------------------------------------- Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/247/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/247/ Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Current thread:
- ALSO MUST READ NYTimes.com: Charging by the Byte to Curb Internet Traffic "People seem to be missing the point." David Farber (Jun 15)
- <Possible follow-ups>
- Re: ALSO MUST READ NYTimes.com: Charging by the Byte to Curb Internet Traffic "People seem to be missing the point." David Farber (Jun 15)
- Re: ALSO MUST READ NYTimes.com: Charging by the Byte to Curb Internet Traffic "People seem to be missing the point." David Farber (Jun 15)
- Re: ALSO MUST READ NYTimes.com: Charging by the Byte to Curb Internet Traffic "People seem to be missing the point." David Farber (Jun 15)
- Re: ALSO MUST READ NYTimes.com: Charging by the Byte to Curb Internet Traffic "People seem to be missing the point." David Farber (Jun 16)
- Re: ALSO MUST READ NYTimes.com: Charging by the Byte to Curb Internet Traffic "People seem to be missing the point." David Farber (Jun 17)
- ALSO MUST READ NYTimes.com: Charging by the Byte to Curb Internet Traffic "People seem to be missing the point." David Farber (Jun 18)