Fwd: [Internet Policy] Some comments on WTO and e-commerce (longish)

["Dave Farber" <dave () farber net>]

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Ang Peng Hwa (Prof) <TPHANG () ntu edu sg>
Date: Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] Some comments on WTO and e-commerce (longish)
To: Richard Hill <rhill () hill-a ch>, thomas.streinz () law nyu edu <
thomas.streinz () law nyu edu>
CC: ISOC Internet Policy <internetpolicy () elists isoc org>


We have here a classic problem of people having only one tool and using it
on everything.



The multistakeholder Internet Governance model was not designed to reach
agreement. Taking the IGF as a prime example, although the mandate allows
for recommendations, not one has been issued. A talk-shop is what business
and civil society wanted but it’s also why some (/many?) governments are
frustrated.



On the other hand, the WTO was built on reaching agreements by governments.
Whatever arrangements the WTO may have, they will, by definition, be
informal. Who is civil society speaking for? Business has the advantage of
having associations, at national, regional and international levels. Civil
society is messy.



On the other hand, it is slowing dawning on trade negotiators that human
rights issues—an agenda that interests civil society most—are not something
to be balanced against or brushed aside.



In the 7 areas of agreement that was in the original TPP (now called
Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership), at
least the last three #5, #6 and #7 involve human rights:

1.    No Customs duties on digital products

   1. No forced disclosure of software source code
   2. Cooperation in cybersecurity
   3. Prohibition of spam
   4. *Privacy protection*
   5. *No requirement that service providers locate data locally*
   6. *Legal immunity of ISPs*

There is even the Manila Principles (manilaprinciples.org) that addresses
#7. And privacy protection is important enough that many people advise me
not to use my Chinese Xiaomi phone (I have bought 4) but to use the iPhone.
A clear case where the absence of the human right to privacy is affecting
Chinese business.



But into this already complicated mix one has to insert the US position.
President Trump had during his campaign promised to pull out of the WTO
because it is unfair and against the US. Apparently, he sees trade as
zero-sum exports-good-imports-bad and wants to use the strength of the US
against countries bilaterally to negotiate more favourable terms. But in
the digital economy, it is more efficient to have one international
standard than 193 standards—all more favourable to but differently
negotiated—to the US.



The US cannot be ignored as it has at least 15 of the world’s top 20
largest online companies. The other 5 or so belong to China.



However, not many countries are pining for the Chinese model of Internet
Governance.



It looks like some model between the WTO and the IGF would be necessary to
work out a global agreement on trade in the digital economy. The current
WTO looks at information flows and I’m not sure it is the most useful
approach. The TPP arrived at 7 areas of agreement by looking at best
practices. Perhaps that might be the way to start.



Regards,

Peng Hwa Ang



*From: *InternetPolicy <internetpolicy-bounces () elists isoc org> on behalf
of Richard Hill <rhill () hill-a ch>
*Date: *Friday, 8 December 2017 at 4:45 PM
*To: *"thomas.streinz () law nyu edu" <thomas.streinz () law nyu edu>
*Cc: *'ISOC Internet Policy' <internetpolicy () elists isoc org>
*Subject: *Re: [Internet Policy] Some comments on WTO and e-commerce



I thought that it was clear in context that by “WTO has nothing”, I meant
no provisions for participation of non-state actors in formal meetings.  I
apologize if that was not clear.  Indeed WTO has various informal setting
in which civil society can participate, but there are no provisions that
allow non-state actors to sit in formal meetings, not even as non-speaking
observers.


And that’s the crux. In other governmental organizations, we can sit in the
room, hear what delegates say, and speak to delegates personally during
breaks, after the meeting, etc.



However, it seems to me that the fundamental point is that ISOC’s position
is that Internet governance discussions should be held in multi-stakeholder
forums.  WTO is not such a forum. So it seems to me that ISOC should be
protesting against proposals to discuss Internet governance matters in WTO.



And I presume that ISOC would, as others have, take a dim view of the
Argentinean government’s blocking participation in the forthcoming WTO
meeting, on spurious grounds, of certain civil society activists, see for
example:




https://www.apc.org/en/pubs/apc-condemns-restrictions-civil-society-wto-summit-calls-argentine-government-facilitate-ngo



Best,

Richard



*From:* Thomas Streinz [mailto:tfs253 () nyu edu]
*Sent:* vendredi, 8. décembre 2017 03:48
*To:* Richard Hill
*Cc:* Fred Baker; ISOC Internet Policy
*Subject:* Re: [Internet Policy] Some comments on WTO and e-commerce



"WTO has nothing" is not true.



See: https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/minist_e/mc11_e/ngo_e.htm

And:
https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/minist_e/mc11_e/ngosregistration_e.htm



There is a vibrant NGO community attending WTO ministerial conferences.
ISOC, the EFF, or any other organization that deals with Internet
Governance issues would easily fulfill the WTO's accreditation criteria as
their work is related to WTO issues (in light of e-commerce work program
etc.).



All this is not to say that the WTO is perfect (far from it). But one
shouldn't overplay the contrast between (allegedly open, transparent,
equal) multistakeholder organizations in Internet Governance and the
(allegedly, closed, governmental, diplomacy driven) WTO.



There will be lots of events on 'digital trade', electronic commerce, trade
facilitation etc.:
https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/minist_e/mc11_e/sideeventsmc11_e.pdf

See in particular: http://tsds.ictsd.org/agenda/new-economy



I will be in Buenos Aires. It is essential to improve exchange between the
Internet Governance community and the trade community. This is not a one
way street.



Best wishes,

Thomas







On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 3:00 PM, Richard Hill <rhill () hill-a ch> wrote:

As far as I know, WTO is the only intergovernmental organization that has no
provisions whatsoever for participation of non-state actors.  UN agencies
allow non-government organizations to be accredited as observers, WIPO has
its own process, ITU has the Sector Members, etc.

WTO has nothing.

Best,
Richard

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fred Baker [mailto:fredbakersba () gmail com]
> Sent: Thursday, December 7, 2017 20:52
> To: Richard Hill
> Cc: ISOC Internet Policy
> Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] Some comments on WTO and e-commerce
>
> WTO isn't a multistakeholder organization, I guess.
>
> > On Dec 7, 2017, at 12:49 AM, Richard Hill <rhill () hill-a ch> wrote:
> >
> > Here is a commentary from EFF regarding the forthcoming WTO meeting
> > and proposals to negotiate e-commerce in WTO:
> >
> >
> > https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/12/argentinian-government-bans-
> civi
> > l-soci ety-organizations-upcoming-wto-ministerial-meeting

> > And here is somewhat more robust criticism and a call for action:
> >
> > https://wto-ic.justnetcoalition.org
> >
> >
> > Best,
> > Richard
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > To manage your ISOC subscriptions or unsubscribe, please log into the
> > ISOC Member Portal:
> > https://portal.isoc.org/
> > Then choose Interests & Subscriptions from the My Account menu.


_______________________________________________
To manage your ISOC subscriptions or unsubscribe,
please log into the ISOC Member Portal:
https://portal.isoc.org/
Then choose Interests & Subscriptions from the My Account menu.


------------------------------
CONFIDENTIALITY: This email is intended solely for the person(s) named and
may be confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient, please delete it, notify us and do not copy, use, or disclose
its contents.
Towards a sustainable earth: Print only when necessary. Thank you.
_______________________________________________
To manage your ISOC subscriptions or unsubscribe,
please log into the ISOC Member Portal:
https://portal.isoc.org/
Then choose Interests & Subscriptions from the My Account menu.



-------------------------------------------
Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/247/=now
RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/247/18849915-ae8fa580
Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=18849915&id_secret=18849915-aa268125
Unsubscribe Now: 
https://www.listbox.com/unsubscribe/?member_id=18849915&id_secret=18849915-32545cb4&post_id=20171208164555:2961EE64-DC61-11E7-AC11-E6798CEF0E36
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com