Re: OT/venting: RIPE legal - please stop this madness!

[Job Snijders <job () instituut net>]

Dear Markus,

I think you are better off taking a deep breath, perhaps removing some
strongly worded sentences, and bring up the topic on one of the RIPE
mailing lists:
https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/ripe-mailing-lists/ripe-list

Kind regards,

Job

On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 9:47 Mel Beckman <mel () beckman org> wrote:

> Sorry, but not only is your giant bolus of a rant not operational, it’s
> not even North American. Please respect the boundaries of our group and
> keep your venting in Europe where it belongs. This isn’t a flame, it’s just
> a polite request that you knock it off.
>
>  -mel beckman
>
> > On Feb 15, 2019, at 7:37 AM, Markus <universe () truemetal org> wrote:
> >
> > Hi list!
> >
> > The following is off-topic/venting. It's about RIPE and my company in
> Germany. If you don't care about this even remotely, don't read on and
> don't flame me. I'm just so pissed and I have no other connection to the
> ISP (and related) community than the NANOG mailing list and I know there
> are some other European ISPs on this list. Here goes:
> > My company has been a RIPE LIR for 17 years now. This week was the first
> time ever that I became, was and still am really, really pissed at RIPE.
> > There's some madness going on in RIPEs legal department. It appears they
> recently hired some retard who now wants to prove he/she is a smartass.
> Harsh words, but I have no other explanation for what's going on right  now!
> > Here's the story:
> >
> > Sunday, 10th February, 17:08 CET: I sent away the online application for
> an additional LIR account. Automatic E-Mail confirmation received.
> > Monday, 11th February, 15:07 CET: I didn't receive a human reply yet,
> and since the business day was nearing its end, I mailed them about the
> status, and asked whether I could come by their Amsterdam office the next
> day to sign the required documents - in order to speed up the whole process.
> > Monday, 11th February, 15:57 CET: Reply from RIPE. Let me just copy and
> paste: "I regret to inform you that we do not offer the possibility to sign
> your contracts in our office and regrettably there is no option to speed up
> the application procedure." - Ok, no biggie. But then:
> > Quote start.
> >
> > "We can see that this is an additional LIR account for Lightup Network
> Solutions GmbH & Co. KG.
> > We are currently reviewing applications with a legal entity type 'GmbH &
> Co. KG' together with our legal department and they have stated the
> following: "GmbH & Co. KG" is a sub-form of a "KG" (partnership).
> > It normally consists of a general partner and one or more limited
> partners, which can be legal or natural persons.
> > According to "Due Diligence for the Quality of the RIPE NCC Registration
> Data" the signing party of an agreement can either be a legal or a natural
> person. A "KG" is not considered a legal person and cant be the signing
> party in our agreements.
> > The agreement can be signed though by one of the legal or natural
> persons that are partners (general or limited). We therefore cannot
> register Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG.
> > As you already have an LIR account with us, we will have to update your
> existing account, de.lightupnet, before we can register this second account
> for Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG.
> > I created a new ticket for your company update and my colleagues will
> contact you shortly for the update."
> > Quote end.
> >
> >
> > That didn't sound so good. I've had a company with the legal form GmbH &
> Co. KG (it's a German company) for about 15 years now and my initial gut
> feeling was "That's just plain bullsh*t!".
> > Tuesday, 12th February, 12:30: I receive another E-Mail. New ticket, as
> they promised.
> > Quote start.
> >
> > "It has come to our attention, that the legal name of your LIR account
> has been registered incorrectly.
> > It was advised by our Legal Department that the legal form of your
> company as "GmbH & Co. KG" is a form of a general partnership that does not
> have a legal personality.
> > If there is a document proving opposite, please send it to us. According
> to our procedure, we can only sign an agreement with a legal person that
> has a legal personality or a natural person.
> > Therefore, we will have to correct your legal name to <Markus Stalder
> trading as "Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG">, instead of <Lightup
> Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG>."
> > Quote end.
> >
> >
> > They also asked that I upload a photo/scan of my passport, which I did.
> I just thought: Ok, let them have their way. If they want to change my LIRs
> description, who really cares. All I want is to create a 2nd LIR and speed
> this whole thing up. But, since they want to be SO LEGALLY CORRECT, I
> replied and mentioned the following. Let me copy and paste.
> > Quote start.
> >
> > "I just uploaded my passport.
> >
> > However, following your logic, you need to change all of the following
> German legal forms in your database to "Individual-name trading as ...":
> > - OHG
> > - KG
> > - GmbH & Co. OHG
> > - GmbH & Co. KG
> >
> > I understand that you would have to do that with a GbR, as a GbR cannot
> get registered in the commercial register of companies and you need to
> specify the names of the individuals. But I think with the above 4 legal
> forms you are making as mistake here.
> > Although it is correct that a GmbH & Co. KG does not have a legal
> personality that differs from its general partners (Persoenlich haftende
> Gesellschafterin) or limited partners (Kommanditist), a GmbH & Co. KG is
> still a legal entity as its able to sue in front of court, or get sued in
> front of court. A GmbH & Co. KG can also purchase rights and enter into
> liabilities, can purchase property and other in rem rights related to
> estates. (Source: <
> https://www.frankfurt-main.ihk.de/existenzgruendung/rechtsfragen/idem/kg/
> > )
> >
> > That being said, since Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG was
> founded, I have never ever signed a contract where the contractual partner
> was "Markus Stalder trading as Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG" but
> the contractual partner was always Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG.
> That includes application forms towards government entities as well as
> contracts with larger corporations.
> > Actually, my gut feeling based on my own experience with my GmbH & Co.
> KG in the last decades tells me that you are making a mistake here.
> > And, if you want to be really accurate: You must be aware that the
> Kommanditist (limited partner) is not allowed to represent the company.
> That is something only the Komplementaerin (general partner) can do. The
> general partner of Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG is AirAccess
> GmbH.
> > I'm attaching both company extracts for your convenience.
> >
> > So, correct would be:
> >
> > AirAccess GmbH trading as Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG"
> >
> > Quote end.
> >
> >
> > Wednesday, 13th February, 18:02: Reply from RIPE:
> >
> >
> > Quote start:
> >
> > "Many thanks for the clarification and the provided documents.
> >
> > Please be informed that our Due Diligence for the Quality of the RIPE
> NCC Registration Data <https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-700>
> has been implemented in 2018. As the application process for our members
> was not so strict before, it was possible to register an LIR account under
> the partnership name. Currently, we are working on correcting these details
> in the Database.
> > At this moment we are reviewing German applications with a legal entity
> type 'GmbH & Co. KG' together with our legal department. Thus the
> information you provided is very helpful.
> > On the review the documents you submitted, we indeed can see that
> "AirAccess GmbH" is a general partner with a special right to represent the
> company. The names of both LIR accounts (de.lightupnet, de.lightupnet1)
> will be corrected tomorrow. It will be confirmed to you once the account
> are updated."
> > Quote end.
> >
> >
> > ... another day passes ...
> >
> >
> > Thursday, 14th February, 16:11: Now for the E-Mail from RIPE that blew
> my mind, in a negative sense.
> > Quote start:
> >
> > "Many thanks for your patience.
> >
> > We have reviewed your case internally and agreed that there is no need
> to sign a new agreement for LIR account <de.lightupnet>, as it was signed
> by the director of the company.
> > It has also come to our attention that, the company AirAccess GmbH (reg.
> No HRB 56386) already has LIR account <de.airaccess>.
> > Therefore LIR <de.airaccess> should be linked as an additional account
> to <de.lightupnet>, and <de.lightupnet1>.
> > Please be informed that the following will be applied to all additional
> LIR accounts:
> > - The /22 IPv4 allocation you will receive is subject to the RIPE NCC
> > Transfer Policy and can therefore only be transferred 24 months after the
> > allocation date.
> > - Members with multiple LIR accounts are entitled to just one vote at
> RIPE
> > NCC General Meetings. The oldest LIR account will receive the vote.
> > - If you wish to transfer internet resources between your LIR  accounts,
> > you need to pay the full annual service fee for all LIR accounts.
> > -  If you wish to close LIR account, you need to pay the full annual
> > service fee for all LIR accounts.
> >
> > At this moment could you please inform us what name you prefer for LIR
> accounts <de.lightupnet>, <de.lightupnet1>: "AirAccess GmbH" or "AirAccess
> GmbH trading us Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG"?
> > Once it is clarified, we will proceed with updating the legal details of
> your accounts and process the application for <de.lightupnet1>."
> > Quote end.
> >
> >
> > Spontaneous thought: HOLY F*CK, ARE THEY SERIOUS ?! ?! ?!  They want to
> change the name of my company - Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG -
> to a completely different company: AirAccess GmbH !!! Totally unrelated to
> each other, different business, different everything. The only thing these
> two companies have in common is that they're both mine. RIPE MUST BE NUTS!
> Here my reply:
> > Quote start.
> >
> > "Hi <name of RIPE NCC support person>,
> >
> > thanks for your mail.
> >
> > Ok, now you are really taking it over the top.
> >
> > 1) You want to link AirAccess GmbH as an additional account to
> de.lightupnet. And you want to do this for a company which is a legal
> entity by itself.
> > I do not allow you to do this. AirAccess GmbH is a legal entity by
> itself and I do not want that you change anything about its current LIR
> status, name or anything else.
> > 2) You are offering that I can choose the name for de.lightupnet and
> de.lightupnet1 to be "AirAccess GmbH", a company which is an entity by
> itself and is merely the Komplementaerin (general partner) for Lightup
> Network Solutions GmbH & GmbH Co. KG.
> > I'm shocked by that idea. That is just completely wrong.
> >
> > Of course I do NOT want de.lightupnet and de.lightupnet1 to be named
> "AirAccess GmbH" because it would be an factual error. And I don't want
> RIPE to make wrong statements about our company/companies towards the
> public.
> > It would be like offering to present nl.ripe as KPN. Or Nike as Adidas.
> >
> > As it appears right now your legal department is doing a mistake when it
> comes to understanding how GmbH + Co. KGs work.
> > Could you also please let me know the E-Mail address or telephone number
> where I can file a complaint about this whole procedure?
> > Thank you."
> >
> > Quote end.
> >
> >
> > This is where it stands right now.
> >
> > It's Friday, 15th February.
> >
> > The work week is over.
> >
> > I'm sitting here, waiting for RIPE since Monday to send me the LIR
> agreement for the 2nd LIR, so that I can sign it, pay it, and be done with
> it.
> > My rhetorical questions are:
> >
> > 1) Are they fucking serious ... I can't remember the last time I was
> this angry at anyone.
> > 2) It's RIPE. A large, established organisation that's been around
> forever. WHY THE F*CK does it take them always 1 day to process something,
> to reply to something? They have TONS of employees, they have TONS of LIRs
> that pay them TONS of money, why is everything moving so slowly with them
> ?! ?! ?! It's 2019, not 1995 FOR F*CKS SAKE !!! Get your act together and
> adapt to the times, modernize yourself and BE FASTER. UARRRGHHHL.
> > 3) Why in heavens name do they EXACTLY have to start with this whole
> f*cked-up process when I ACTUALLY need something from them (a 2nd LIR
> account)? Why in this very moment? Yeah, because my company popped up on
> their screen because I applied for a 2nd LIR account, makes sense. But,
> could they not simply process the damn LIR application at the same time to
> speed this whole thing up, and later change this sh*t. No, of course, it
> would be not efficient for them to do that, but it's NOT MY FAULT they
> didn't ask to update this data/fix this company sh*t earlier. But now THEY
> MAKE IT MY PROBLEM. Because I'm losing precious time. F*CK!
> > 4) If you look at the LIR list for Germany here - <
> https://www.ripe.net/membership/indices/DE.html> - and search for "GmbH &
> Co. KG" in the document, you will see many companies that are still
> "unchanged": Company name GmbH & Co. KG, but you will also see some that
> were already "updated" according to RIPE logic: "Firstname Lastname trading
> as "Company GmbH & Co. KG" - the "funny" thing is that this is just wrong
> as I explained earlier. They have to re-do all these changes. By looking at
> this list it appears I'm the first where they offer to change it to
> "Another-company-name GmbH trading as Company GmbH & Co. KG" JUST BECAUSE I
> told them that with GmbH & Co. KGs the Kommanditist (legal partner) is not
> allowed to represent the company. So, being the first, and looking at that
> list for comparison tells me they have no idea what they are doing!
> > Have a good day everyone and down with unnecessary, over-the-top
> > bureaucracy! It's 2019 FOR F*CKS SAKE!!!
> >
> >
> > Regards
> > Markus