Penetration Testing mailing list archives
RE: OPST vs CEH
From: "Don Parker" <dparker () rigelksecurity com>
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 18:13:07 -0500 (EST)
I find it rather unlikely that any GIAC certified individual would not know the difference between a syn scan and a full connect. For that matter I have met several graduates of comp sci who were rather sad as well. The one thing that GIAC has going for it is that it has a rather difficult certification process which proves unequivocally that you know your material. Cheers! Don ------------------------------------------- Don Parker, GCIA Intrusion Detection Specialist Rigel Kent Security & Advisory Services Inc www.rigelksecurity.com ph :613.249.8340 fax:613.249.8319 -------------------------------------------- On Feb 11, wjnorth <wjnorth () earthlink net> wrote: Good points all. Here's my two cents, which will probably get me flamed, but, whatever I've got spam. Certs in general, in my opinion, do not offer anything other then the recognition that someone spent enough time to study material and answer questions, and perhaps participate in a lab environment. I've ran into so many countless people that have certifications ranging from GSEC, CISSP, GCIA and a ton of others, that didn't know the difference between a syn scan and a full tcp connect, or couldn't explain some of the current public exploits and what they do to systems, or valued ISS over nessus, and nessus over manual methods...the list goes on and on. That is not to say that the certs are useless, far from it, especially if one backs it up with practical experience. Having said that, let me also say that while I hold these sentiments against certifications I also believe they are worth something in that it provides people the ability to get into security or whatever field their cert is for. They aren't useless, in my mind, but for sure nothing beats experience. Additionally I believe some of the SANS certs hold a bit more water then others simply due to industry acceptance, awhile back someone might have said the same for CISSP. Regarding the OSTMM, I only recently (within the last year) found out about them, and have been doing security for quite a while, but apparently not long enough to run across this very interesting methodology. -Wes P.S. you'll notice no letters after my name, but I could list my four year degree to offer some credibility. ;-) At 07:14 AM 2/9/2004 -0500, Bartholomew, Brian J wrote:
Actually I did not, due to the fact that Track 4 was useless. I do however have a great respect for people who have taken the GIAC Certs as they are very difficult (especially the GCIA). But, as for the material covered, and the way it was taught, SANS Track 4 is NOT a good course to take to learn the basics behind pen testing. The question was asked about which to take...OPST or CEH (not GCIH). The answer I gave described the courses I had been through, including Track 4 and an "opinion" as to which of the classes were better. Also I would have to say that you are in the same boat as I sir since you do not carry the GCIH. So, your defense on that specific Track has as much credibility as mine if we are going off of "certifications" as you hinted in the previous email. I was in your shoes about a year ago and thought SANS was the greatest thing since sliced bread, until I took Track 4. The difference between Track 3 (your certification) and Track 4 (the one we are discussing) is too large to quantify. So, as stated in my last email, I suggest you take my advice and not waste your, or your company's money on SANS Track 4. Take the time and try to attend one of the OSTMM specific courses as they are much, much better. Good day to you. Brian J. Bartholomew US Department of State Bureau of Diplomatic Security DS/SI/ACD SA-20 Special Programs Ph: 571-345-2598 Cell: 202-369-6349 1801 North Lynn St. Arlington, VA 22201 -----Original Message----- From: Don Parker [mailto:dparker () rigelksecurity com] Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 2:31 AM To: Bartholomew, Brian J; 'pen-test () securityfocus com' Subject: RE: OPST vs CEH Hello Brian, did you actually bother to certify after taking whatever SANS training it was that you took? The SANS training is among the best out there, however the challenge starts when you do the certification process. This has not only a difficult "practical" portion, but also two demanding exams. From what I have seen of the OSTMM and the CEH neither one of them measure up. The OSTMM does seem to offer business training as well though in addition to the other obvious training. Though I would say that is best left to a place which actually specializes in business training such as a college. Cheers ------------------------------------------- Don Parker, GCIA Intrusion Detection Specialist Rigel Kent Security & Advisory Services Inc www.rigelksecurity.com ph :613.249.8340 fax:613.249.8319 -------------------------------------------- On Feb 6 , "Bartholomew, Brian J" <BartholomewBJ () state gov> wrote: I have taken the CEH but not the OPST. The CEH is kinda simplistic, and pretty easy to pass. I have not taken the OPST, however, I have heard that it is much more in depth and more difficult to pass. I do think the course designed with the CEH exam (I took one through Intense school) is one of the better courses I have taken (in comparison with Foundstone, SANS, etc.). Those "other" courses are too mainstream and none of them speak of the OSTMM except for the CEH oriented classes. To sum it up...If you are looking for letters after your name and a good base to start with, go for the CEH (it can't hurt). If you want to take a more detailed, OSTMM sponsored test, take the OPST. What the hell, take both if you really like a challenge :) Brian J. Bartholomew Bureau of Diplomatic Security DS/SI/ACD SA-20 Special Programs Ph: 571-345-2598 Cell: 202-369-6349 1801 North Lynn St. Arlington, VA 22201 -----Original Message----- From: circut () hackthisbox org [mailto:circut () hackthisbox org] Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 11:01 AM To: kenzo Cc: pen-test () securityfocus com Subject: Re: OPST vs CEH I've taken the CEH class. It's pretty good, but it focuses more on hacking windows then it does linux or unix. The instructor and environment was good though. They don't really talk too much in depth about buffer overflows or privledge escalation on linux. But I think the class was worth it. NEver taken any of those other tests. -circut On Wed, 4 Feb 2004, kenzo wrote:I'm thinking about taking one of these certs. OPST (OSSTMM PROFESSIONAL SECURITY TESTER) or CEH (certified ethical hacker) I've read about the two, and they seem to be kind of the same thing. I know that some people in here were talking about the opst, but whataboutthe ceh? Has anyone taking the CEH or both? Please let me know. thanks.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Free trial: Astaro Security Linux -- firewall with Spam/Virus Protection Protect your network with the comprehensive security solution that integrates six applications for ease of use and lower TCO. Firewall - Virus protection - Spam protection - URL blocking - VPN - Wireless security. 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Current thread:
- RE: Learning vs. Play Time, (continued)
- RE: Learning vs. Play Time Robert E. Lee (Feb 07)
- RE: Learning vs. Play Time Clement Dupuis (Feb 12)
- RE: Learning vs. Play Time Robert E. Lee (Feb 07)
- RE: OPST vs CEH Don Parker (Feb 07)
- Re: OPST vs CEH Ben Nelson (Feb 11)
- RE: OPST vs CEH Bartholomew, Brian J (Feb 11)
- RE: OPST vs CEH wjnorth (Feb 12)
- credentials & experience (was: Re: OPST vs CEH Meritt James (Feb 16)
- Re: OPST vs CEH Patrick Prue (Feb 13)
- RE: OPST vs CEH Pete Herzog (Feb 16)
- RE: OPST vs CEH wjnorth (Feb 12)
- RE: OPST vs CEH Don Parker (Feb 12)
- RE: OPST vs CEH Don Parker (Feb 13)
- RE: OPST vs CEH wjnorth (Feb 16)