Re: [lists] Re: What to spend on a pentest

["The McLain Family" <amclain () columbus rr com>]

And just to make sure we are on the same page, they have to be from a third 
party.  If you don't use a third party, an officer of the company has to 
sign off on the the audit, and no officer in their right mind would want to 
risk the fines.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Erin Carroll" <amoeba () amoebazone com>
To: <pen-test () securityfocus com>
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 5:29 PM
Subject: RE: [lists] Re: What to spend on a pentest


I wanted to make a minor correction to David's post since I am intimately
familiar with PCI at my day job. :)

The PCI standard does require a business obtain quarterly vulnerability
assessments from an external vendor. PCI also requires an annual penetration
test. The relevant PCI sections are 11.2 and 11.3

----
11.2 - Run internal and external network vulnerability scans at least
quarterly and after any significant change in the network (e.g. new system
component installations, changes in network topology, firewall rule
modifications, product upgrades). Note that external vulnerability scans
must be performed by a scan vendor qualified by the payment card industry

11.3 - Perform penetration testing on network infrastructure and
applications at least once a year and after any significant infrastructure
or application upgrade or modification (e.g. operating system upgrade,
sub-network added to the environment, web server added to the environment)
---

You'll notice the annual pen-test requirement in 11.3 doesn't specify that
an external "qualified" vendor need perform it (it can be done in-house) and
there is nothing specifying that you "stop right at the edge of running the
exploit" as David states. By definition a pen-test requires compromising or
exploiting a vulnerability, otherwise it is a vulnerability scan. However,
nothing in 11.3 specifies that the pen-test has to be run on all production
systems or all at once so that businesses can avoid downtime by creative
interpretation. I could pen-test and compromise a select couple of
webservers out of a production cluster to avoid downtime to business and
that would meet with the 11.3 requirement.

What isn't explicitly defined in 11.2 and 11.3 are where you will see
businesses diverge in policy and procedures…what qualifies to the business
as *significant* changes in the network? For some companies defining
"firewall rule modification" as significant would mean they would have to VA
and pen-test every damned week and I would buy stock in several VA companies
so fast you'd get whiplash. :)

--
Erin Carroll
Moderator
SecurityFocus pen-test list
"Do Not Taunt Happy-Fun Ball"


> -----Original Message-----
> From: David M. Zendzian [HYPERLINK HYPERLINK mailto:dmz () dmzs com
mailto:dmz () dmzs com HYPERLINK mailto:dmz () dmzs com mailto:dmz () dmzs com]
> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 11:54 AM
> To: Curt Purdy
> Cc: 'Intel96'; 'Michael Weber'; pen-test () securityfocus com
> Subject: Re: [lists] Re: What to spend on a pentest
>
> I've been following this thread and have noticed that no one
> here is considering the liability of a "real" pen test.
> Unless you are testing QA or Dev environments, anything you
> find could not only prove that a compromise is real but also
> bring that business offline, and since you don't know when or
> where or what you'll find the business would need to keep
> someone "on-call" during the entire engagement to restore or
> fail over.
>
> Plus if you look at some of the pen-test requirements
> (standards(pci, ...), regulations(sox, hipaa, ...)) and look
> at what they call for when pen-testing.  PCI pen-tests are
> required yearly, however the pen test must stop right at the
> edge of running the exploit, so you never know if it actually
> runs. So here we have an industry standard "pen-test" (and
> don't forget that PCI also requires quarterly vulnerability
> assessments) where the pen-test is specifically required to
> not penetrate.
>
> That tied with most business' not willing to perform social
> or physical testing, it is 90% network based these days; so
> the majority of pen-tests are really only expanded
> vulnerability tests. But also remember that most companies
> only get pen-tests or vulnerability tests because of these
> standards or regulations which then bind what they testers
> are able to do.
>
> What I would be interested in is hearing from those 10% of
> pen testers who are able to do "real" pen tests, and what
> motivates their clients if it is not a "requirement".
>
> David M. Zendzian
> dmz
>
> Curt Purdy wrote:
> > Intel96 wrote:
> >
> >> You also need to determine how much manual testing may have to be
> >> performed on the systems.  Such as cracking logins,
> cracking cookies,
> >> etc, or searching the systems for embedded passwords in script or
> >> configurations files and looking at the database schemes.
> >>
> > <snip>
> >
> > Unfortunately, most pentest companies don't do manual
> testing.  Like
> > the bank that I was ISO at hired NetBankAudit to "pentest"
> them.  They
> > likely had a young tech running scripts on a dozen clients
> that night
> > and found one minor problem on our acquistion.  The next
> Sunday night
> > between 10pm and 6am, I manually tested and found six
> serious problems.
> >
> >
> > Curt Purdy CISSP, GSNA, GSEC, CNE, MCSE+I, CCDA Information
> Security
> > Officer Information Systems Security infosysec.net
> > 443.846.4231
> >
> > -------------
> >
> > If you spend more on coffee than on IT security, you will
> be hacked.
> > What's more, you deserve to be hacked.
> > -- former White House cybersecurity czar Richard Clarke
> >
> >
> >
> >
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rise,
you need to proactively protect your applications from hackers. Cenzic has 
the
most comprehensive solutions to meet your application security penetration
testing and vulnerability management needs. You have an option to go with a
managed service (Cenzic ClickToSecure) or an enterprise software
(Cenzic Hailstorm). Download FREE whitepaper on how a managed service can
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This List Sponsored by: Cenzic

Concerned about Web Application Security? 
Why not go with the #1 solution - Cenzic, the only one to win the Analyst's 
Choice Award from eWeek. As attacks through web applications continue to rise, 
you need to proactively protect your applications from hackers. Cenzic has the 
most comprehensive solutions to meet your application security penetration 
testing and vulnerability management needs. You have an option to go with a 
managed service (Cenzic ClickToSecure) or an enterprise software 
(Cenzic Hailstorm). Download FREE whitepaper on how a managed service can 
help you: http://www.cenzic.com/news_events/wpappsec.php 
And, now for a limited time we can do a FREE audit for you to confirm your 
results from other product. Contact us at request () cenzic com for details.
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