Secure Coding mailing list archives
Where Does Secure Coding Belong In the Curriculum?
From: chandra at list.org (Pravir Chandra)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 18:10:01 -0700
The "playing in traffic" example is one extreme end of the spectrum. A good analogy for the other end might be physics where you just teach Newtonian theory it as if it were 100% accurate and then, if the student decides to take a relativistic physics class, you teach them on day 1 that everything they know isn't right. It seems teaching secure programming must lie somewhere between these two ends of the spectrum. Perhaps a more useful exercise (rather than debating where in the gradient through metaphor) is to try to enumerate the variables that play into what draws a topic toward one end or the other. Such variables might include: * "stickiness" of the bias/habits acquired as you learn more * impetus to learn more * ability/access to learn more Just a thought. p. On 8/25/09, Goertzel, Karen [USA] <goertzel_karen at bah.com> wrote:
We teach toddlers from the time they can walk that they shouldn't play in traffic. A year or two later, we teach them to look both ways before crossing the street. Even later - usually when they're approaching their teens, and can deal with "grim reality", we give examples that illustrate exactly WHY they needed to know those things. But that doesn't mean we wait until the kids are 11 or 12 to tell them shouldn't play in traffic. There has to be some way to start introducing the idea even to the rawest of raw beginning programming students that "good" is much more desirable than "expedient", and then to introduce the various properties that collectively constitute "good" - including security. Karen Mercedes Goertzel, CISSP Associate 703.698.7454 goertzel_karen at bah.com ________________________________________ From: Andy Steingruebl [steingra at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 1:14 PM To: Goertzel, Karen [USA] Cc: Benjamin Tomhave; sc-l at securecoding.org Subject: Re: [SC-L] Where Does Secure Coding Belong In the Curriculum? On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 7:26 AM, Goertzel, Karen [USA]<goertzel_karen at bah.com> wrote:For consistency's sake, I hope you agree that if security is an intermediate-to-advanced concept in software development, then all the other "-ilities" ("goodness" properties, if you will), such as quality, reliability, usability, safety, etc. that go beyond "just get the bloody thing to work" are also intermediate-to-advanced concepts. In other words, teach the "goodness" properties to developers only after they've inculcated all the bad habits they possibly can, and then, when they are out in the marketplace and never again incentivised to actually unlearn those bad habits, TRY desperately to change their minds using nothing but F.U.D. and various other psychological means of dubious effectiveness.Seriously? We're going to teach kids in 5th grade who are just learning what an algorithm is how to protect against malicious inputs, how to make their application fast, handle all exception conditions, etc? ... _______________________________________________ Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L at securecoding.org List information, subscriptions, etc - http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l List charter available at - http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php SC-L is hosted and moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC (http://www.KRvW.com) as a free, non-commercial service to the software security community. _______________________________________________
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Current thread:
- Where Does Secure Coding Belong In the Curriculum?, (continued)
- Where Does Secure Coding Belong In the Curriculum? Stephan Neuhaus (Aug 25)
- Where Does Secure Coding Belong In the Curriculum? Brad Andrews (Aug 25)
- Where Does Secure Coding Belong In the Curriculum? Goertzel, Karen [USA] (Aug 25)
- Where Does Secure Coding Belong In the Curriculum? Benjamin Tomhave (Aug 25)
- Where Does Secure Coding Belong In the Curriculum? Stephan Neuhaus (Aug 25)
- Inherently Secure Code? Brad Andrews (Aug 25)
- Where Does Secure Coding Belong In the Curriculum? Pete Werner (Aug 25)
- Where Does Secure Coding Belong In the Curriculum? Andy Murren (Aug 25)
- Where Does Secure Coding Belong In the Curriculum? Andy Steingruebl (Aug 25)
- Where Does Secure Coding Belong In the Curriculum? Goertzel, Karen [USA] (Aug 25)
- Where Does Secure Coding Belong In the Curriculum? Pravir Chandra (Aug 25)
- Where Does Secure Coding Belong In the Curriculum? Benjamin Tomhave (Aug 25)
- Where Does Secure Coding Belong In the Curriculum? Goertzel, Karen [USA] (Aug 26)
- Where Does Secure Coding Belong In the Curriculum? Wall, Kevin (Aug 26)
- Where Does Secure Coding Belong In the Curriculum? Benjamin Tomhave (Aug 26)
- Where Does Secure Coding Belong In the Curriculum? Wall, Kevin (Aug 26)
- Where Does Secure Coding Belong In the Curriculum? McGovern, James F (HTSC, IT) (Aug 27)
- Message not available
- Where Does Secure Coding Belong In the Curriculum? Olin Sibert (Aug 25)
- Where Does Secure Coding Belong In the Curriculum? Kenneth Van Wyk (Aug 26)
- Where Does Secure Coding Belong In the Curriculum? Goertzel, Karen [USA] (Aug 26)
- Where Does Secure Coding Belong In the Curriculum? Matt Bishop (Aug 25)