Security Basics mailing list archives
RE: CISSP Question
From: "Craig Wright" <Craig.Wright () bdo com au>
Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 09:11:48 +1000
Hello James, The issue is that you should be contacting ISC2. James, you are in effect making assertions as to the legal status of ISC2. They are a member controlled non-profit organisation. You are in effect asserting that they may be engaged in some impropriety and in effect squandering member's funds on illegitimate endeavours. What you have done is in effect defamation on a public forum. Published defamation is called libel. There are several defences, primarily: 1 what you said was true; 2 you had a duty to provide information. If you had discovered that the books are not correct for ISC2, it could be argued that you have a duty to make a statement, you may be protected under the defence of "qualified privilege." However, this is not the case in your statements. You are making implications and innuendos and implying that these are the truth. The facts are readily available and are publicly audited. Rather however than obtain the information, you have decided to state that people who are not in agreement with your tactics are unprofessional and can not have a rational discourse. I would argue that a professional would obtain the facts prior to making assertions and than only make assertion if and when any impropriety is discovered. "Bitching" about certifications is one thing. When this degrades into a petty slinging match about an external third party, this is another matter. If you wish to denigrate ISC2, I would expect that you demonstrate some of the professionalism that you purport to hold and first check the facts. Or to put this in another format that may be easier to understand (as much as I hate analogy). On gaining a new client do you rant and spread FUD as they have product X which has been known to have vulnerabilities in the past, or do you test the system first and when finding nothing, report that. One of the key tenants of professionalism is ethical behaviour. Spreading implications and innuendos as the truth is unethical. In a classic formulation approved by Geopel J. of Supreme Court of British Columbia CA, a communication is defamatory if it "tends to harm the reputation of another so as to lower [him, her or it] in the estimation of the community or deter third persons from associating or dealing with them." "If the defamatory communication takes a permanent or semi-permanent form - that is, if it is written, or spoken while being recorded or filmed such that it is preserved in some way - then it is libel, and actionable without proof of actual pecuniary loss. If it is spoken only, then it takes the form of slander and, with some exceptions, only the economic losses that can be proven to have resulted from the false communication can be recovered. Defamatory imputations that depend on an interplay between the impugned words and the facts and circumstances that surround their publication fall, at law, into the category of "true innuendo'." You have attempted without recourse to the truth or facts (which are as stated available) to impugn an organisation where you have no proof or duty to do so. This is libellous. I hope that you are clever enough to desist on this line of discussion. There is a rather large line between arguing that certification is not of value as you started and defaming the reputation of a respected organisation. I do not care if you like ISC2 or not. This is not discussion or debate. It is mud slinging and belongs in a gutter. Regards, Craig S Wright Craig Wright Manager of Information Systems Direct +61 2 9286 5497 Craig.Wright () bdo com au +61 417 683 914 BDO Kendalls (NSW) Level 19, 2 Market Street Sydney NSW 2000 GPO BOX 2551 Sydney NSW 2001 Fax +61 2 9993 9497 www.bdo.com.au Liability limited by a scheme approved under Professional Standards Legislation in respect of matters arising within those States and Territories of Australia where such legislation exists. The information in this email and any attachments is confidential. If you are not the named addressee you must not read, print, copy, distribute, or use in any way this transmission or any information it contains. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender by return email, destroy all copies and delete it from your system. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and not necessarily endorsed by BDO Kendalls. You may not rely on this message as advice unless subsequently confirmed by fax or letter signed by a Partner or Director of BDO Kendalls. It is your responsibility to scan this communication and any files attached for computer viruses and other defects. BDO Kendalls does not accept liability for any loss or damage however caused which may result from this communication or any files attached. A full version of the BDO Kendalls disclaimer, and our Privacy statement, can be found on the BDO Kendalls website at http://www.bdo.com.au or by emailing administrator () bdo com au. BDO Kendalls is a national association of separate partnerships and entities. -----Original Message----- From: listbounce () securityfocus com [mailto:listbounce () securityfocus com] On Behalf Of Simmons, James Sent: Wednesday, 16 May 2007 3:45 AM To: david.a.harley () gmail com Cc: security-basics () securityfocus com Subject: RE: CISSP Question Have I ever said anything specific about everyone who has a CISSP? Please present my quote? I understand that people will do what they can to obtain work, make more money, what ever. I have never said anything against that. My WHOLE point is that this industry is placing too much emphasis on certifications, and that a lot of them are flawed or suspect. That is where all this started. If anyone has found anything that I say insulting, then they are just projecting my words upon themselves for no reason. I have stated scenarios were unqualified individuals see these certification as a fast track to more money. Did that hit a never with you? Do you perceive yourself as one of those, so you take offence? I have stated that HR uses certification as a cookie cutter qualification for filling positions. Are you HR? Did you take offence to that? Maybe it was my point that a lot of management do not understand what to look for in a certification, and thus go with the most popular. Are you guilty of this? Is this why you think I am attacking you? I am not attacking any one person, because honestly I do not care about your personal life. I am looking to raise some questions, feel out the community, and obtain different point of views. I have received a lot of good e-mails from people, and a few varied responses. I have ran into very few people who are actually willing to defend certifications, let alone engage in a discussion about the validity of them. I am pointing out oddities I see in the industry. You can either correct them if you have the proof or the reasoning, or you can add in your own opinions and start a civilized discussion/debate. I know nothing of anyone on this forum, just as much as anyone on this forum knows anything about me. I am not here for friends. I am here to have a civilized discussion, and get the view points of the people that frequent this mailing list. That is the purpose of this mailing list. If you have too thin of skin, that you take these comments as personal attacks, then maybe the tubes is not a place for you. And again I will quote myself since no one seems to want to read it.
Since I will have to send off and wait for the tax information for I
cannot say much at >>this time in the way of where the money is going. My figures I quoted are called estimates. They were presented to continue the discussion until I can obtain the final numbers. But instead of either trying to correct the estimate, I am berated by not using the real number, which I, time and time again, say that I am trying to obtain. I am not saying that I am leaving it up to anyone else to obtain for me (because honestly I would not trust anyone else's numbers without a reputable source link anyways). I am just pointing out that instead of attacking me someone can continue the conversation with a rebuttal, be it with actual figures or corrected estimates. I have enjoyed and learned a lot from this discussion based on the positive feedback. David, I have to say that I am not attacking you personally and if you perceive it that way, then I can only hope that you will understand that it is not my intention. If anyone finds anything wrong with what I say, then I encourage them to write me offline and I will write a retraction, or at least address the issue and try to make my point clear against misunderstandings. In fact I am still waiting for my retraction to be posted where I misquoted $30 million dollars annually, when it is really $5 million annually in dues alone. I need you to understand that I am not attacking anyone that has the certifications. They are doing what they believe they need to. That is understandable if not noble. It is just the whole idea of the group mentality, I am attacking something that you are apart of and so by association you believe that I am attack you. I am not. There is no innuendo, just estimates. If you have a problem with my estimates, then present your own. I tried to present them fairly in that I did not account for a lot of the money that is coming in. I did that as an offset. So I hope we can continue this discussion, because I value the other sides input. It prepares me for my presentation / debate I will be submitting. So I am looking for someone to put holes in my argument, and not make it a personal battle. Regards, Simmons -----Original Message----- From: David Harley [mailto:david.a.harley () gmail com] Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 9:58 AM To: Simmons, James; 'Craig Wright' Cc: security-basics () securityfocus com Subject: RE: CISSP Question
As I stated before the $24 million was a gross UNDER estimate. You can
easily see when I were I was disclosing my figures were I was making the UNDER estimates, and how in reality they would come out to far more then I quoted. If you have an issue with my figures, then refute them.
I know, I said I had nothing to add to this discussion, but this is ridiculous. If I do have anything, it isn't a defence of (ISC)2. If you believe that their claim to be a non-profit organization is dishonest, it's up to you to prove it with real figures: it's not up to Craig or myself to disprove it: I have other priorities. If you want to know about their finances, there are better ways than posting here. Innuendo is not debate. Making unsubstantiated allegations against SANS and (ISC)2 doesn't prove anything about the value of any of their certs, and I'm tired of being dissed, directly or obliquely, because I hold one of them. -- David Harley CISSP, Small Blue-Green World Security Author/Editor/Consultant/Researcher AVIEN Guide to Malware: http://www.smallblue-greenworld.co.uk/pages/avienguide.html Security Bibliography: http://www.smallblue-greenworld.co.uk/pages/bibliography.html
Current thread:
- RE: CISSP Question, (continued)
- RE: CISSP Question Craig Wright (May 09)
- Re: RE: CISSP Question null_zero (May 10)
- RE: RE: CISSP Question David Harley (May 10)
- RE: RE: CISSP Question winsoc (May 10)
- RE: RE: CISSP Question Laundrup, Jens (May 10)
- Re: RE: CISSP Question Yousef Syed (May 10)
- RE: RE: CISSP Question David Harley (May 10)
- RE: RE: CISSP Question David Harley (May 10)
- RE: CISSP Question Craig Wright (May 10)
- RE: CISSP Question Craig Wright (May 10)
- Re: RE: CISSP Question vijay . upadhyaya (May 15)
- RE: CISSP Question Craig Wright (May 16)
- RE: CISSP Question Simmons, James (May 16)