Firewall Wizards mailing list archives
RE: Re: Ethics, morality and the industry
From: "Alan Holmes" <alan () tympaniinc com>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:07:05 -0500
Just curious, In Mitnick's case, who were the victims that you would pay restitution to? Not one of the corporations that claimed damages actually reported the losses in their annual report. Based on that, Scott McNealey should be sharing a jail cell with Martha Stewart and consequently no one should ever listen to Mr. McNealey speak again, because after all, if he signed an annual report that didn't reveal losses the size of what Sun claimed due to Mitnick copying the source code then, he is a criminal. The message I got from the original post wasn't whether reformed black hats are good or bad or can even be reformed but that some people still have a strong conviction in their own beliefs and are willing to forego $$$ in exchange for standing behind those beliefs. I think that is a very admirable trait and something that is quite rare today. -----Original Message----- From: firewall-wizards-admin () honor icsalabs com [mailto:firewall-wizards-admin () honor icsalabs com] On Behalf Of Mark Teicher Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 1:19 PM To: Paul D. Robertson; Paul Foster Cc: firewall-wizards () honor icsalabs com; jseanor () avaya com Subject: Re: [fw-wiz] Re: Ethics, morality and the industry Actually there is difference between Frank Abigale and Mitnick. After serving a portion of his time, Frank Abigale went to work in designing systems that are currently in use today. Mitnick, on the other hand, has not contributed at that scale to help improve any of the systems he supposedly broke into it, except to jump start a fledging security industry in taking an interest in the types of ways Mitnick was successful in defeating the security systems in place at the time. The Telecommunications providers have yet to make all the recommended security improvements that allowed Mitnick to accomplish what he did. Let's take a look at other people who suffered the same sort of fate. Intel vs Randall Schwartz (1993), Randal spoke at SANS a while back about his case on "What not to do as a System Administrator". It was a very good talk, getting back on topic, having former criminal speak at conference is not a crime, and they should be rewarded for it, and there should be big statements, like this speaker's honorium/fee is being collected to pay restitution to their victims. /m -----Original Message----- From: "Paul D. Robertson" <paul () compuwar net> Sent: Oct 29, 2004 1:16 PM To: Paul Foster <Paul.Foster () dmtsystems net> Cc: firewall-wizards () honor icsalabs com Subject: Re: [fw-wiz] Re: Ethics, morality and the industry On Fri, 29 Oct 2004, Paul Foster wrote:
To my mind the issue is that he's still *profiting* from his crimes. That doesn't do justice to the victims, nor does it send the right message IMO. Crime should not pay.How so? He talks about how he would exploit security systems, and this is his area of expertise. The guy spent many enjoyable years in jail (on his knees?) which does not sound like 'crime pays' to me.
It's also his area of criminality. That's not a good message- there are *plenty* of good guys who have the same expertise who haven't created victims who can give out the same information. It worries me socially that the royal we tend to put these folks on pedestals when they're nothing more than confidence tricksters who have no special information or skills.
I think that the fettering should include profiting from whatever badness the person did- hey, if he was lecturing on IPv6 security, then I don't see as much of an issue.Perhaps he doesn't know squat about IPv6. If we prevent him from legally earning a buck on issues he does know, we could inadvertently be encouraging use of those skills illegally.
IMO, society would be better served if we *really* rehabilitated them. Having them stand up in front of people and proclaim how great they were when they were doing illegal activities seems to run counter-productive to that to me. He doesn't know squat about IPv6 because we're letting him cruise on notoriety rather than making him go get a real job that doesn't profit from his criminality. And yes, if he's so bent on doing wrong than on doing the right thing, then let's let him commit more crime, and lock him up again- because that means he's not reformed and shouldn't be out of jail.
I hope that in the future, CSI chooses its keynote speakers more carefully.Should we bury our heads in the sand and not learn from people like this?
You can learn all there is to learn without paying them princely sums and celebrating notoriety. There's both more value in what Howard Schmidt and Bill Murray say than in what Abignale and Mitnick say, and a better overall message for the industry and society to send by using them. Paul ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Paul D. Robertson "My statements in this message are personal opinions paul () compuwar net which may have no basis whatsoever in fact." probertson () trusecure com Director of Risk Assessment TruSecure Corporation _______________________________________________ firewall-wizards mailing list firewall-wizards () honor icsalabs com http://honor.icsalabs.com/mailman/listinfo/firewall-wizards _______________________________________________ firewall-wizards mailing list firewall-wizards () honor icsalabs com http://honor.icsalabs.com/mailman/listinfo/firewall-wizards _______________________________________________ firewall-wizards mailing list firewall-wizards () honor icsalabs com http://honor.icsalabs.com/mailman/listinfo/firewall-wizards
Current thread:
- Re: Ethics, morality and the industry, (continued)
- Re: Ethics, morality and the industry Paul Foster (Oct 29)
- Re: Re: Ethics, morality and the industry Marcus J. Ranum (Oct 29)
- Re: Re: Ethics, morality and the industry Paul Foster (Oct 29)
- Re: Re: Ethics, morality and the industry Marcus J. Ranum (Oct 29)
- Re: Re: Ethics, morality and the industry Marcus J. Ranum (Oct 29)
- Re: Re: Ethics, morality and the industry Marcus J. Ranum (Oct 29)
- Re: Re: Ethics, morality and the industry Paul Foster (Oct 29)
- Re: Re: Ethics, morality and the industry Paul D. Robertson (Oct 29)
- RE: Re: Ethics, morality and the industry Eugene Kuznetsov (Oct 29)
- Re: Ethics, morality and the industry Paul Foster (Oct 29)
- Re: Re: Ethics, morality and the industry Mark Teicher (Oct 29)
- Re: Re: Ethics, morality and the industry Mark Teicher (Oct 29)
- RE: Re: Ethics, morality and the industry Alan Holmes (Oct 30)
- Re: Re: Ethics, morality and the industry "Vin McLellan" (Oct 31)
- Re: Re: Ethics, morality and the industry Devdas Bhagat (Oct 31)
- Re: Re: Ethics, morality and the industry Christopher Hicks (Oct 31)
- RE: Re: Ethics, morality and the industry Alan Holmes (Oct 30)