IDS mailing list archives
Re: IPS, alternative solutions
From: Jason <security () brvenik com>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:11:38 -0400
I think we can all agree that IPS is no replacement for Patch Management. My point is that there is no demonstrable ROI that I have seen for IPS yet there appears to be a perception that it is a more cost effective way of dealing with the problem. This is likely a result of the parroting by some IPS vendors of a virtual patching concept. I am open to the case if it can be shown, this is why I asked anyone to provide an actual ROI.
The way I see it, an IPS can attempt to contain your infestation and help reduce your legal exposure from outbound attacks that would otherwise make it to your partners... This is a value I can quantify and the best use case I have seen for IPS. The problem I have with it is that a properly implemented firewall can most likely do the same and provide much better overall value.
With IPS we also have to consider that it is often implemented to "fail open" allowing traffic to pass unmolested in the case of a failure. If we can all agree that system overload is often the case in worm outbreaks then we have a bad situation brewing. I predict that the failure will ultimately result in containment being lost when the IPS is overwhelmed. I would like to test that prediction IRL if I get a chance. Does anyone have real world data surrounding the failure cases under extreme load?
Cure, Samuel J wrote:
I agree with Paul that IPS is not a solution to replace existing patch management solutions. In fact, I would not even rely on it to "buy time" until a consolidated update is ready (such as quarterly). There are too many opportunities for exposure while waiting for the consolidated update even WITH IPS installed. There are many encoders available these days that allow for the most commonly detected exploits to be concealed over the wire andbypass IDS/IPS systems.I do agree however with the resource requirements necessary for testing androlling out each patch or hotfix.Scott, to answer your question on cost effective, perhaps IPS will more than likely be less expensive than the resources required to test and updatepatches. There are many factors to consider during this evaluation as well such as -standard builds and services that are not needed. -several patch management systems are available today that are starting totake away from the argument of patch test resources being unavailable -IPS technology is being developed that provide more holistic analysis to detect anomalies for zero day and newer exploits. These may have ability toverify encoded exploit packets as well.Just my thoughts, Scure -----Original Message----- From: Palmer, Paul (ISSAtlanta) [mailto:PPalmer () iss net] Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 10:36 AM To: Jason; Scott Wimer Cc: Daniel; focus-ids () securityfocus com Subject: RE: IPS, alternative solutions Jason, The ROI in a medium+ organization does not come from using IPS as a patch replacement system. The IPS lets the organization schedule the patches at its convenience instead of the de facto schedule implied by the release of the patch. That is, without something like an IPS in place, the organization needs to apply patches as quickly as possible to maintain their security posture. This is problematic for many reasons. However, there are two common, major ones. First, it can take months (even longer) to deploy a patch to all levels of an organization. During this time the organization remains vulnerable. Second, it is difficult to manage multiple overlapping patch and/or frequent patch processes. The IPS allows them to delay patch installation until it is convenient and this is where the ROI materializes. The IPS protects the organization until it can deploy the patch everywhere. The ROI here is obvious when a worm hits before you can complete the patch installation. It turns out that the cost to install a dozen patches at once (even from multiple vendors) is not much more than the cost to install one critical patch. So an organization that can defer all patch installation to the beginning of each quarter for example can reap huge dividends over the cost of rolling out each patch individually. They only need to test one set of changes prior to applying them (instead of several per quarter). In addition, the number of different configurations present in the organization at any moment is reduced, thereby lowering support costs. Paul -----Original Message-----From: Jason [mailto:security () brvenik com] Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 3:47 PMTo: Scott Wimer Cc: Daniel; focus-ids () securityfocus com Subject: Re: IPS, alternative solutionsI've heard of no medium+ sized business that is considering deploying inline technology on the internals of the network in a sufficiently pervasive manner that there would be any measurable benefit from the technology over patching and asset management.I would be seriously interested in an ROI that can demonstrate savings.The simple question is how is inline packet scrubbing easier and more cost effective than patching?Scott Wimer wrote:Daniel,I agree with your assessment. What I have encountered in the financial sector though is a desire to have the packets "scrubbed" before they reach the servers. People _want_ to deploy network based IPS tools because it is easier and more cost effective. That it doesn't seem to be possible yet is another story altogether.Regards, Scott Wimer On Tue, 2004-09-14 at 06:01, Daniel wrote:So far there has been a load of talk discussing which is the better technology. Personally i dont think IPS is ready for the big time. Yeah its great for small mum and dad networks, but for large financial networks with billions of pounds flowing across them, wouldyou trust a technology to think and block what it seems as bad traffic?So what are the alternatives? I'd say more host based protection suchas: - Stack protection - Application level firewalls (ModSecurity/SecureIIS) - Host based firewallsI'm interested to see what everyone else feels are alternatives to IPS--------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Test Your IDSIs your IDS deployed correctly? Find out quickly and easily by testing it with real-world attacks from CORE IMPACT. Go to http://www.securityfocus.com/sponsor/CoreSecurity_focus-ids_040708to learn more.------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Test Your IDS Is your IDS deployed correctly? Find out quickly and easily by testing it with real-world attacks from CORE IMPACT. Go to http://www.securityfocus.com/sponsor/CoreSecurity_focus-ids_040708 to learn more. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Test Your IDS Is your IDS deployed correctly? Find out quickly and easily by testing it with real-world attacks from CORE IMPACT. Go to http://www.securityfocus.com/sponsor/CoreSecurity_focus-ids_040708 to learn more. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***************************************************************************** The information in this email is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone elseis unauthorized.If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. When addressed to our clients any opinions or advice contained in this email are subject to the terms and conditions expressed inthe governing KPMG client engagement letter. *****************************************************************************
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- Test Your IDS Is your IDS deployed correctly? Find out quickly and easily by testing it with real-world attacks from CORE IMPACT. Go to http://www.securityfocus.com/sponsor/CoreSecurity_focus-ids_040708 to learn more. --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Current thread:
- Re: IPS, alternative solutions, (continued)
- Re: IPS, alternative solutions Jason (Sep 16)
- Re: IPS, alternative solutions Scott Wimer (Sep 15)
- Re: IPS, alternative solutions Jason Haar (Sep 16)
- Re: IPS, alternative solutions Jason (Sep 16)
- Re: IPS, alternative solutions Alex Butcher, ISC/ISYS (Sep 15)
- Re: IPS, alternative solutions Andy Cuff (Sep 16)
- Re: IPS, alternative solutions Johann_van_Duyn (Sep 15)
- RE: IPS, alternative solutions Palmer, Paul (ISSAtlanta) (Sep 17)
- Re: IPS, alternative solutions Jason (Sep 17)
- RE: IPS, alternative solutions Murtland, Jerry (Sep 17)
- RE: IPS, alternative solutions Cure, Samuel J (Sep 21)
- Re: IPS, alternative solutions Jason (Sep 22)
- Re: IPS, alternative solutions Mike Frantzen (Sep 22)
- Re: IPS, alternative solutions Devdas Bhagat (Sep 27)
- Re: IPS, alternative solutions Thomas Ptacek (Sep 29)
- Re: IPS, alternative solutions Kyle Maxwell (Sep 23)
- Message not available
- Re: IPS, alternative solutions Jason (Sep 26)
- Re: IPS, alternative solutions p z (Sep 27)
- Re: IPS, alternative solutions Jason (Sep 30)
- Re: IPS, alternative solutions Jason (Sep 22)
- RE: IPS, alternative solutions Stuart Staniford (Sep 29)