Re: "1984" sales spike

[Vic Vandal <vvandal () well com>]

Jeff, 

I notice that you left out these original words of mine in your response:
"Just for the record, I'm pro-immigration but anti-illegal-immigration, and calling for fiscal responsibility on this 
topic should not be misconstrued as any bias against migrant workers from below our southern border."

Yep, you must have missed that part about "pro-immigration".  I'm all for allowing a logical number of people from 
other countries to migrate to the United States annually, with a path to residency or citizenship, legally.

Now let me respond to your misguided remarks individually.


Jeff wrote:
When I was younger, I used to drink a a little bar after work. Many of
the rednecks in that bar had nothing good to say about folks like
blacks and hispanics. They would claim the blacks and hispanics were
lazy and worthless, and they should be sent back to their countries.
In fact, some of those white folks would were more than happy to
collect unemployment rather than working the jobs the blacks and
hispanics would take.

My response:
Your bar story adds nothing of value to the discussion.  But maybe the fact that you hung out in a bar where "MANY of 
the rednecks had nothing good to say about blacks and hispanics" says something about yourself.  I don't know but I do 
have to wonder.  Personally I'd rather drink alone at home than with a bunch of idiots, but that's just me.
I will say that you could scour the planet and you would not be able to find anyone who could truthfully claim that I 
ever sat around bad-mouthing blacks or Hispanics, if that's what you were trying to suggest with that tale.  Half of my 
good friends in high school were black.  I've had countless other black friends as an adult.  I was also married to a 
Hispanic woman from Central America for 20 years.  She immigrated to this country at age 15.  I have a Hispanic son.  
Those are facts, which may or may not make you realize how truly misguided your responses are.
I'll also add in the fact that while I am a "white folk" I've never been unemployed.  But I've worked some sh*t jobs in 
my youth and I'd work them again in a heartbeat if I were otherwise unemployed.  But it is too bad that your old bar 
friends are so lazy.


Jeff wrote:
What happens when no unemployed white worker will take the job? Do you
like your strawberries and peaches at a reasonable price (and funded
off the backs of migrant workers)? Or do you want to pay 9.99/lb?

My response:
News flash.  If people are in this county illegally who aren't paying income taxes and aren't paying into social 
security, and who are at the same time draining social services paid for by legal workers who pay taxes, then in a 
roundabout way we're already paying extra elsewhere.  
Also as noted already, you completely missed the part where I said I was "pro-immigration".
Finally, if I want strawberries and peaches badly enough, I'll pay whatever they cost.  Just like I do with gasoline, 
alcohol, etc.


Jeff wrote:
Where is the human factor?

My response:
I'm willing to bet a guaranteed hundred dollars that I pay more into charities and do more service and volunteer work 
annually for the poor and disadvantaged than you do by far.  There's my human factor.  We can compare 1040 Schedule A 
forms and itemized deductions for the past 10 years any time, and if you give away more of your hard-earned money than 
I do (assuming you work) then I'll PayPal you the money.  And once again I'm "for" allowing people to migrate here for 
work, legally.  Let them all receive a decent wage, while paying into the system and benefiting from its services.


Jeff wrote:
Have you been to Mexico, Guatemal or El Salvador to see what those
people are leaving? I surely don't fault them for their desires of
things like clean water and better education for their children.

My response:
Yes, I've been to two of those three specific countries more than once, which is pretty irrelevant.  I know exactly 
what the poverty situations are in many other countries.


Jeff wrote:
As a counterpoint: why would you consider a callused policy that
penalizes children? 

My response:
I don't see it as a calloused policy to make employers (who are raking in huge profits off the backs of illegal 
workers) stop taking advantage of certain immigrants' legal situation in paying them sh*t wages.  Quite the contrary.  
And that simple suggestion, added solely as an alternative to wasting taxpayer money on more border security, penalizes 
children how?  Don't answer that, because I'm sure the answer will be as misguided as some of your other remarks.


Jeff wrote:
Those sorts of f**k up foreign policies brought on
9/11 (unless you believe they hate us because we are democratic).

My response:
I really hate doing this, but you basically forced my hand.
Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaa!  That is the funniest (and dumbest) thing that I've read all day.  A 
small group of Muslim radicals crashed planes on 9-11 because the U.S. tried some immigration reform?
Here, let me educate you a bit.  Here is a 1998 fatwa/declaration by Osama bin Laden, where he very specifically laid 
out his grievances against the U.S. 
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm
He and his followers also took some issue with our reported widespread immoral acts of sex outside of marriage, 
homosexuality, usage of drugs and alcohol, gambling, etc.


In closing I offer my sincere apologies to the funsec crowd who ended up reading this.  It is only because Jeffrey 
Walton didn't reply to me individually that I also replied to all.  I promise I won't reply to all going forward, 
because debating with any of the unwashed masses on the Internet is almost always a waste of time, and I know that most 
of you have better things to do than witness more of that.


Vic out


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeffrey Walton" <noloader () gmail com>
To: "Vic Vandal" <vvandal () well com>
Cc: funsec () linuxbox org
Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 1:11:32 PM
Subject: Re: [funsec] "1984" sales spike

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 8:31 AM, Vic Vandal <vvandal () well com> wrote:
> ...
> And while you're at it I'll digress from the fun in funsec slightly further, in suggesting that you thoughtfully 
> consider this unrelated petition that was inspired by current battles in Congress over immigration reform.
>
> http://wh.gov/l3i8W
When I was younger, I used to drink a a little bar after work. Many of
the rednecks in that bar had nothing good to say about folks like
blacks and hispanics. They would claim the blacks and hispanics were
lazy and worthless, and they should be sent back to their countries.
In fact, some of those white folks would were more than happy to
collect unemployment rather than working the jobs the blacks and
hispanics would take.

> ...
>
> Risk = Many immigrants enter the U.S. illegally every year, subsequently take jobs away from legal residents (under 
> the table), don't pay income taxes, don't pay into social security, put a drain on social services, and whatnot
>
> Risk Countermeasures:
> #1 - giant walls that span almost 2,000 miles, mega surveillance above and below ground, a million border guards, etc.
> #2 - laws that threaten employers with hefty fines and/or prison sentences for hiring illegal aliens
What happens when no unemployed white worker will take the job? Do you
like your strawberries and peaches at a reasonable price (and funded
off the backs of migrant workers)? Or do you want to pay 9.99/lb?

> Now we identify the Effectiveness of the two Countermeasures.
>
> Countermeasure #1 = Medium effectiveness (which gets a value of 2, in a scale of 1-2-3)
> Countermeasure #2 = High effectiveness (which gets a value of 3, in that same scale)
> ...
Where is the human factor?

Have you been to Mexico, Guatemal or El Salvador to see what those
people are leaving? I surely don't fault them for their desires of
things like clean water and better education for their children.

As a counterpoint: why would you consider a callused policy that
penalizes children? Those sorts of f**k up foreign policies brought on
9/11 (unless you believe they hate us because we are democratic).

Jeff
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