Security Incidents mailing list archives
Re: A question for the list...
From: Kevin Reardon <Kevin.Reardon () oracle com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:25:49 -0700
Please keep these discussions directed toward the email list, it's supposed to be a general conversation. Ignorance of the Law is no excuse, but it does not imply a mandatory use of vigilantism as a response. In the case where a landlord is notified and they do nothing, the police and regional prosecutors will have something to say about it. If the neighbor, on the other hand, responds in some manner, even if it is the same response the police would do, they would be guilty of several offenses (and rightly so because it would not be the actions of a "reasonable man"). Again, we use police to enforce the laws, removing the burden (and hopefully the arbitrary reactions of vigilantism) from the general users of society. ---K Tom Vande Stouwe wrote:
To extend your analogy, If you are the landlord, and a neighbor calls you and tells you your tenant had put a drug slot in the front door and you do nothing, are you still innocent? Vulnerabilities are all over the net, and no on that runs a server can say 'I did not know'. Here we say 'Ignorance of the Law is no excuse' and when you accept the responsibility for being a landlord (or server admin) you accept the responsibility for its proper use within the constraints of 'average person' restrictions. Tom -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Reardon [mailto:Kevin.Reardon () oracle com] Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 4:15 PM To: Mark Ng Cc: incidents () securityfocus com Subject: Re: A question for the list... Yes they are innocents. If you rent a house though an agency and they rent it to a crack dealer, and you live in another state, how do you know he is dealing crack? Are you guilty of allowing your premises to be used in an illegal manner? In situations like this, Meat Space uses a trusted third party to enforce the rules (police and the UN sometimes). Such a third party does not exist in Cyberspace, nor with the existing protocols could it without a restructure of OS's or the transport protocols. Automated alerts could become shrapnel in an attack. They could be spoofed, would be subjected to the same software issues any program has (bugs) and even a false alert could send an ISP to chasing its tail. ---K Mark Ng wrote:Just 2 cents -Is this proposal a vaccine, or could it unleash such collateraldamageas to make the Internet useless? Keep in mind that the "attackers"aremore then likely compromised systems, and are thus "innocents." ButisAre owners of long term compromised systems really "innocents"? Ifpeoplehave left systems compromised with worms that are attacking othernetworksand reports have been ignored for significant amounts of time, thensurelythe compromised party are guilty of negligence ? Personally, I think there are merits to some kind of "strikeback"system,but it has worse than dubious legality, and would definitely be abused (without a question). I think that ISP's need to make a more activerole inthis, and actively threaten to cut off customers whos compromisedsystemsare attacking other networks on the internet. Perhaps rather than a strikeback system, something similar to ARIScould beused to send automated alerts to ISP's warning them that x number oftheircustomers have the latest worm. In the event that ISP's arenon-compliant,and don't deal with their infected customers, peering points couldagree toenforce this upon ISP's. This is much preferable to doing things that may or may not be morally correct, but are a legal minefield. Thoughts ? Regards, Mark Ng (www.informationintelligence.net)------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- *** Wireless LAN Policies for Security & Management - NEW White Paper *** Just like wired networks, wireless LANs require network security policies that are enforced to protect WLANs from known vulnerabilities and threats. Learn to design, implement and enforce WLAN security policies to lockdown enterprise WLANs. To get your FREE white paper visit us at: http://www.securityfocus.com/AirDefense-incidents ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- *** Wireless LAN Policies for Security & Management - NEW White Paper *** Just like wired networks, wireless LANs require network security policies that are enforced to protect WLANs from known vulnerabilities and threats. Learn to design, implement and enforce WLAN security policies to lockdown enterprise WLANs. To get your FREE white paper visit us at: http://www.securityfocus.com/AirDefense-incidents ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Current thread:
- Re: A question for the list..., (continued)
- Re: A question for the list... Ray Stirbei (May 21)
- RE: A question for the list... Bojan Zdrnja (May 26)
- Re: A question for the list... Ray Stirbei (May 21)
- Re: A question for the list... Steven (May 20)
- Re: A question for the list... Chip Mefford (May 21)
- RE: A question for the list... Luc Pardon (May 21)
- Re: A question for the list... Keith W. McCammon (May 22)
- Re: A question for the list... Steve Barnet (May 22)
- Re: A question for the list... Gary Flynn (May 23)
- Re: A question for the list... Valdis . Kletnieks (May 25)
- Re: A question for the list... Dave Booth (May 22)
- Re: A question for the list... Kevin Reardon (May 22)
- Re: A question for the list... Brian Finn (May 22)
- Re: A question for the list... Kevin Reardon (May 23)
- Re: A question for the list... Brian Finn (May 22)
- RE: A question for the list... King, Brian (May 22)
- Re: A question for the list... Kevin Reardon (May 23)
- Re: A question for the list... Stephen P. Berry (May 23)
- Re: A question for the list... Jimi Thompson (May 23)
- Re: A question for the list... Chip Mefford (May 26)
- Re: A question for the list... Ray Stirbei (May 27)
- RE: A question for the list... Jonathan A. Zdziarski (May 28)
- RE: A question for the list... ktabic (May 29)
- Re: A question for the list... Chip Mefford (May 26)