more on Congressman Conyers calls for select committee tostudy impeachment

[David Farber <dave () farber net>]

Begin forwarded message:

From: Marc <marcaniballi () hotmail com>
Date: December 24, 2005 6:03:53 AM EST
To: dave () farber net
Subject: RE: [IP] more on Congressman Conyers calls for select  
committee tostudy impeachment

Dave;

Bob has brought up the primary disconnect in the entire mess, as I  
see it.
There was, somewhere in the intelligence community, a belief/ 
assumption that
"rogue states" were the most likely places to find and eliminate  
WMDs. This
may have been the case during the cold war, but it has long since  
ceased to
be true. The price of a WMD is dropping almost as fast as the price of a
MIP. In addition, the range of options for WMDs is growing  
exponentially.
(Remember when it was just nuclear bombs?)

One could agree that the actions of the last few years are not only
justifiable, but rational, under the "rogue states" assumption. Given  
the
reality that; any sufficiently smart and motivated group with access  
to a
reasonable amount of funding could accomplish any number of WMD  
objectives,
we now have an entirely different problem to deal with - one that  
doesn't
respond at all to current tactics. It is actually aggravated by them!

Following Kurzweil logic, while we may be on the brink of a human
evolutionary leap, we are also on the brink of a different evolution  
- one
where the capacity to seriously injure, or even destroy humanity will be
attainable by a large number of individuals, each capable of acting  
alone.

How do we deal with such a threat? Certainly not by cutting education  
and
increasing military spending/activity. Oh, and please don't get me  
started
on justifying one's actions based on divine intervention - That's the  
form
of logic (or more properly "willful suspension of logic") that  
brought down
the two towers.



-----Original Message-----
From: David Farber [mailto:dave () farber net]
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 1:58 AM
To: ip () v2 listbox com
Subject: [IP] more on Congressman Conyers calls for select committee  
tostudy
impeachment



Begin forwarded message:

From: "Atkinson, Robert" <rca53 () columbia edu>
Date: December 23, 2005 11:22:00 PM EST
To: dave () farber net
Subject: RE: [IP] more on Congressman Conyers calls for select
committee tostudy impeachment

Dave:



As I understand it, the "real objective" of our involvement in Iraq
was and still is to minimize the risk to this country (and allies)
that unstable, hostile countries or terrorists could acquire weapons
of mass destruction. After 9/11, even the slightest possibility of
terrorists or rogue states having WMDs became intolerable. Period.



Is "no WMDs in hostile hands" a necessary and worthwhile national
security objective?  It's hard to think that it isn't; certainly
nuclear proliferation isn't good.



So, with "no WMDs in hostile hands" as the principal national
security objective, the thinking was and is that the invasion of Iraq
could help achieve the objective in three ways:



1) By making sure that Saddam Hussein's Iraq didn't have WMDs or the
capability of developing them (this mission was accomplished quickly:
despite expectations to the contrary, no WMDs were found and it is
unlikely that the "new Iraq" will ever have WMD capability);



2) By making it clear to other rogue states (such as Libya, Iran,
North Korea) that the United States will never permit them to have
WMDs, and that they will suffer Iraq's fate (ruination) if they try
(this mission was accomplished with respect to Libya; success is less
assured with respect to Iran and North Korea and the "lack of will"
currently being shown in the United States may mislead Iran and North
Korea into thinking they have nothing to fear); and,



3) By establishing a stable, civilized, democratic society in the
Middle East in the hope that it will minimize the need for the United
States to police the region for the foreseeable future (this mission
has not yet been accomplished and might be the most difficult; it
will be a long time before any judgment can be made).



The Afghan/Iraq actions seem to have reduced the possibility of
nuclear war between India andPakistan and they helped to expose the
dissemination of nuclear bomb-making know-how to rogue states by A.Q.
Khan.  These unintended consequences can help achieve the objective
of "no WMDs in hostile hands" and are a "bonus."



Was the invasion of Iraq the best way or only way to achieve a
critical national security objective? Could different things be done?
Obviously, there is a lot of debate about that now. But you asked
about what is the "real objective," not the means of achieving it.



Bob





-----Original Message-----
From: David Farber [mailto:dave () farber net]
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2005 6:15 PM
To: ip () v2 listbox com
Subject: [IP] more on Congressman Conyers calls for select committee
tostudy impeachment



> > Frankly they don't give a damn whether we succeed in our

> > objectives in either Afghanistan or Iraq



I may give a damn if someone would explain to me what the real

objectives of our involment in Iraq?



Dave





Begin forwarded message:



From: Dewayne Hendricks <dewayne () warpspeed com>

Date: December 23, 2005 10:47:55 AM EST

To: Dewayne-Net Technology List <dewayne-net () warpspeed com>

Subject: [Dewayne-Net] re: Congressman Conyers calls for select

committee tostudy impeachment

Reply-To: dewayne () warpspeed com



[Note:  This comment comes from reader Dave Hughes.  DLH]



> From: "Dave Hughes" <dave () oldcolo com>

> Date: December 21, 2005 8:51:52 AM PST

> To: <dewayne () warpspeed com>

> Subject: Re: [Dewayne-Net] re: Congressman Conyers calls for select

> committee tostudy impeachment

>

> My source of information did not come from Drudge. I don't read or

> use his trash.

>

> What angers me is that Congressional antagonists (I don't call them

> 'critics' any more - they are far more interested in political

> advantage for the next election and media grandstanding than

> serious or responsible critique of how this war is being waged)

> don't have a clue, and could care less, what it takes to cope with

> the militant 100 year Islamic war aimed at the United States being

> waged by Al Quaeda and its global wanna-be's.  Which is based on

> subversion, clandestine communications, the use of ever more deadly

> and miniaturized weaponry and related technologies (which I warned

> Secretary of Defense McNamara of 40 years ago would be the future

> nature of war) now including encrypted internet, fleeting telephone

> calls and coded messaging many of whose signals between agents in

> two foreign countries technically route through switches in the US.

> Resulting in singular acts of terrorism far more calculated to

> break the will of naive American people through their chosen weapon

> of television than the amount of real destruction.

>

> Frankly they don't give a damn whether we succeed in our objectives

> in either Afghanistan or Iraq  and are perfectly willing, starting

> with what is printed in the New York Times in blatantly revealing

> the details of every classified operation the US undertakes.

> Whether or not that directly contributes to the death of more

> Americans or more terrorist strikes or not, either in Iraq or New

> York.

>

> As for my crack about Clinton's use of executive powers, just don't

> forget that the botched intelligence about Iraq and the degree to

> which it had, or was making, WMD, was provided a new President,

> Rumsfeld and Powell, after 9/11 by the incompetent CIA Director

> George 'slam dunk' Tennant whom Clinton selected and over whose

> agency he presided for 8 preceding years, while Al Quaeda grew and

> laid down its long range plans to destroy the infidel - the United

> States.

>

> Clinton and his cabinet was utterly asleep at the foreign

> intelligence and terrorist threat switch, even after Al Quaeda

> started blowing up embassies. And even blew the opportunity to grab

> or kill Osama Bin Laden, who had been identified by the previous,

> Reagan, administration, when he was offered up on a silver plate by

> another country.

>

>

> Dave Hughes

> dave () oldcolo com

>

> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dewayne Hendricks"

> <dewayne () warpspeed com>

> To: "Dewayne-Net Technology List" <dewayne-net () warpspeed com>

> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 1:35 AM

> Subject: [Dewayne-Net] re: Congressman Conyers calls for select

> committee tostudy impeachment

>

>

> > [Note:  This comment comes from reader Dave Hughes.  This blog

> > item  might provide some clarity to Dave's comment: <http://

> > thinkprogress.org/2005/12/20/drudge-fact-check/>.  DLH]

> >

> > > From: "Dave Hughes" <dave () oldcolo com>

> > > Date: December 20, 2005 5:11:56 PM PST

> > > To: <dewayne () warpspeed com>

> > > Subject: Re: [Dewayne-Net] Congressman Conyers calls for select

> > > committee tostudy impeachment

> > >

> > > Gee, I wonder why the Republicans overlooked the opportunity to

> > > add counts to Clinton's impeachment hearings, since he too

> > > authorized warrentless wiretapping of Americans in the US during

> > > his 8 years.

> > >

> > > Dave Hughes



Weblog at: <http://weblog.warpspeed.com>







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