Re: Lawsuit threat against RBL users

[David Stoddard <dgs () us net>]

        I have avoided getting into this debate, but this has really gone
        too far.  Bob Allisat's contention is that any ISP that attempts
        to filter content is violating "inalienable rights and freedoms"
        is way off the mark.

        Ok, Mr. Allisat, I'll bite -- explain to me what "right" is being
        violated when I stop a spammer that is trying to advertise "Hot
        Pussy Sites" to eleven year old children?  Or how about get rich
        quick schemes that forge their addresses to hide their identities
        so you can not trace them after they rip you off?  Or chain letters
        that clog mail spools while susceptible people worry about their
        outcomes if they don't comply with the letter?

        You scream "inalienable rights and freedoms", but your motive is
        to promote and encourage those that would prey on the most
        susceptable of our society.  Freedom that robs our children of
        their innocence, promotes con artists, and feeds on the vulnerable
        is not freedom, Mr. Allisat!

        But I think you have another axe to grind as well.  Your letter
        to Karl Denninger contains the following exerpts:

        *  "Whatever rights, freedoms and liberties we have are eliminated
            in favour of Kangaroo courts like Vixie's network or RBL finks,
            Customer Services flunkies and over-bearing capitalists ..."

        *  "They hide behind arguments that their systems are private
            property and their alleged "property rights" are more important
            than our inalienable rights and freedoms."

        *  "Our rights to security over our data and communications, to
            privacy and access to commercial and personal e-mail, etc are
            all *SUPERIOR* to any tertiary rights these business organizations
            may claim."

        *  "We have universal, inalienable rights and freedoms. These
            precious things extend to private property and internationally."

        Based on these statements, I can only conlude you have a huge
        problem with the capitalistic system, and that you favor the
        elimination of private property in order to foster your "freedom".
        That is the same argument Fidel Casto uses on the people he
        suppresses, and was the common theme among communist countries
        before the fall of the Berlin wall.  Joseph Stalin shared your
        views on private property.  I don't.  As a capitalist, I find
        your ideas offensive and misguided.

        Wake up Mr. Allisat -- you already have a feee system.  One that
        can choose whether to filter spam or not.  One that can choose
        whether to give his private property away or not.  Your concept
        of "inalienable rights and freedoms" is one that would force all
        ISPs to do things YOUR way, instead of the current free choice
        system we currently have.

        And one other point -- calling the people that help customers
        configure their systems to connect to the Internet "Customer
        Services flunkies" is insensitive and unfair.  I know the employees
        that work for my company go out of their way to make sure every
        customer is helped and treated with respect, regardless of the
        customers experience with computers or the Internet.  That is one
        of the advantages of paying for Internet service -- you get real
        customer service from people who actually care whether or not
        your experience is a positive one.  That is capitalism.

        Paul Vixie and his team of "RBL finks" are to be commended on the
        excellent job they have done in stopping the poisonous assult of
        pornographic filth, fraud, and manipulation that spam brings to
        people everyday.  And for people that want to take the RBL even
        further, we provide a list via autoresponder at spamlist () us net
        that blocks even more of this crud.  And here is the best part --
        its up to the FREEDOM of the individuals that use these resources
        to determine if and how they want to use them.

        There are no "inalienable rights and freedoms" that give spammers
        unrestricted access to the Internet.  Even the courts have upheld
        the right of ISPs to block and filter spam -- see the URL
        http://www.aclu.org/issues/cyber/updates/nov13clu.html#cyberpromo

        If you want to use your time and resources to foster and promote
        the activites of people that prey upon society at large, go right
        ahead -- that's "freedom", and it is your "right" to do so.  I have
        always found it interesting that the people the scream the loudest
        about their rights do it in the context of denying others their
        rights.  As an ISP, I have the right to choose.  And I choose not
        to do business with spammers.

        Dave Stoddard
        US Net Incorporated
        301-361-6000
        dgs () us net

Bob Allisat writes:
> Karl Denninger writes:
> > That looks an awful lot like an industry-wide blacklist, and those 
> > are dangerously close to being per-se illegal.
> >
> > There's nothing wrong with a single provider putting whatever 
> > provisions in their agreements they see fit - you're always free 
> > to shop for a new provider.  However, when industry actions 
> > conspire to basically *force* certain provisions to be included in 
> > *everyone's* contracts, and those provisions go beyond "don't do 
> > illegal things", then IMHO you're exerting force that needs to be 
> > very carefully thought out.
>
>  When every Service Provider writes
>  a carte blanche paragraph into their
>  alleged Acceptable Use Policies
>  allowing such practices as "Black
>  Holing", content deletion, account
>  termination etc. we become hostages
>  to commercial entities. Whatever
>  rights, freedoms and liberties we
>  have are eliminated in favour of
>  Kangaroo courts like Vixie's network
>  or RBL finks, Customer Services
>  flunkies and over-bearing capitalists
>  like Mr. Denniger here. They hide
>  behind arguments that their systems
>  are private property and their
>  alleged "property rights" are
>  more important than our inalienable
>  rights and freedoms.
>
>  It is not our right merely to
>  choose among companies and corporate
>  entities. Our rights to security over
>  our data and communications, to 
>  privacy and access to commercial
>  and personal e-mail, etc are all
>  *SUPERIOR* to any tertiary rights
>  these business organizations may
>  claim. While Denniger shrieks in
>  uncharachteristic defense of our
>  liberties he is the first one to
>  claim dominion over every machine
>  and anything anyone does using
>  those machines, telling them to
>  basically get lost if they don't
>  like it.
>
>  We have universal, inalienable
>  rights and freedoms. These precious
>  things extend to private property
>  and internationally. If we do not 
>  fight to protect these inalienables
>  we will suffer the rough consequences.
>  Please visit <http://fcn.net> for
>  more information.
>
>  Respectfully,
>
>  Bob Allisat
>
>  Free Community Network _ bob () fcn net . http://fcn.net
>  http://fcn.net/allisat _ http://fcn.net/draft