RE: Certification or College degrees?

["Daniel Golding" <dgolding () sockeye com>]

Mathew,

Most very good network engineers (and I'm not saying there are many of
these), are familiar with both network engineering, and, to at least a
limited degree, coding. These guys tend not to be "software engineers" or
developers, but can certainly crank out some perl, TCL, or C as the need
arises, usually for network management purposes. Network Engineers who can't
script their own monitoring or management apps are clearly not as useful as
those who can.

Additionally, a basic knowledge of software engineering/general comp sci
concepts, such as queuing, sorting, hashing, SPF algorithms, and other
discrete math areas are extremely useful to the network engineer who is
attempting to troubleshoot a subtle equipment or network problem, perhaps
one that is caused by the interaction of various vendor's equipment.

I'm not saying all IT certs are bad - I think I've had most of them, at one
time or another. However, if I had to pick between my degree, and any or all
of them, there would be no question that an engineering degree is more
useful.

The biggest problem with these certs, and the lack of network engineering
degree programs has been the lowest common denominator "network engineer",
who has no basic knowledge of the principles that underlie the profession,
but instead rely upon rote memorization or quick fixes. That's not to say
that I haven't met a few very good engineers without degrees - I just think
they would be much better engineers with them.

- Daniel Golding

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-nanog () merit edu [mailto:owner-nanog () merit edu]On Behalf Of
> Mathew Lodge
> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 7:53 PM
> To: Nigel Clarke
> Cc: Nanog List
> Subject: Re: Certification or College degrees?
>
>
>
> Nigel,
>
> I think you are confusing software engineers with network engineers. As a
> rule of thumb, software / applications writers rarely understand how
> networks really work, in the same way that network engineers rarely
> understand how software / applications really work.
>
> IMHO, there is no mandatory reason a network engineer has to know a
> programming language, in the same way there's no mandatory reason that a
> top software engineer has to be able to configure a Cisco router. People
> who grok both worlds are critical for companies that are writing software
> that touches networks, and in general such people are versatile and
> valuable. But the real trick is getting a team of all three types to
> complement each other, not hiring a single skill / mindset.
>
> You also seem not to like Cisco for some reason. Perhaps this is why you
> have never looked at the curriculum for CCIE. It does require you to know
> the Cisco CLI, but that is to show you can correctly implement the
> solutions you devise -- a very practical consideration for someone
> purporting to be a network engineer. Knowing how to devise those
> solutions
> is the major focus of CCIE, not memorizing the Cisco CLI. You
> could equally
> translate the learned knowledge to, say, Juniper CLI. Finally, trying to
> paint re-certification in a very fast-moving industry as some kind of
> conspiracy is a real stretch.
>
> The title of this thread is part of the problem: "certification or
> degrees", as if they are mutually exclusive.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mathew
>
>
>
>
> At 06:37 PM 5/22/2002 -0400, Nigel Clarke wrote:
>
> > IMO:
> >
> > Certifications are a waste of time. You'd be better off
> > obtaining a Computer Science degree and focusing on the
> > core technologies.
> >
> > Why would you devote your career to learning a vendor's
> > command line or IOS?
> >
> > Cisco has done an excellent job @ brainwashing the IT
> > community. The have (unfortunately) set the standard for
> > "Network Engineers".
> >
> > What do you think is more respected, a masters degree in
> > Networking Engineering or a CCIE. In most
> > circles it would be the latter.
> >
> > Cisco's certification program has effected the entire IT
> > community. Their CCIE's are required to recertify every few
> > years, thus forcing them to stay true to the Cisco lifestyle.
> >
> > I've met some CCIE's who don't know any programming languages
> > or any experience with Unix. It's clear that they are one
> > dimensional and unfocused.
> >
> > Why study the same thing over and over? Do you really have X
> > amount of years experience, or do you have 1 years experience
> > X times?
> >
> > Think about it. If you have been in the field for over 5
> > years and someone new to the industry by way of certification
> > can handle your work load, that is a serious problem.
> >
> > If anything certs should be used as a stepping stone or
> > advancement to new technologies or areas.
> >
> > Then again, the question of CERTS vs. DEGREES might apply
> > differently to someone without any experience. I guess it
> > really depends on what your looking for.
> > ---
> >
> > Nigel Clarke
> > Network Security Engineer
> > nigel () forever-networks com