nanog mailing list archives
Re: Linux: concerns over systemd adoption and Debian's decision to switch
From: Doug Barton <dougb () dougbarton us>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2014 16:51:21 -0700
On 10/23/14 4:01 PM, Simon Lyall wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014, Stephen Satchell wrote:On 10/22/2014 08:20 PM, Simon Lyall wrote:On Wed, 22 Oct 2014, Miles Fidelman wrote:And maybe, you should check out some of the upstream bug reports re. systemd interactions with NTP.If you think the current situation is all good then maybe you should look at other bugs for ntp. eg this one I that affected me with Ubuntu Disktop. They only run time syncing when the network is bounced so if you have a stable network then your machine will never sync: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ntp/+bug/1178933[..]I'm a long-time user of NTP, and what you are asking for is a no-good way of doing things. What you are supposed to do is use the ntpdate(8) utility *ONCE* on boot to initially set the system clock, then you have ntpd(8) running to do two things for you: sync up to one or more time sources, and discipline the local clock.[..]That's the SERVER way of running a time synchronization. So it would appear that you have a quarrel with GUI support, not with NTP itself.What my point was is that the "simple default for end users" [1] is already significantly broken in Ubuntu (that is just one bug that bit me, there are plenty of others). The systemd system seems to offer and improvement on the existing "simple default" setup while still enabling experts to run a full ntpd install if they wish. [1] - I know how to setup and run ntpd, I didn't expect to need to do it on my workstation however.
If you are actually arguing that because Ubuntu made a mistake on how the "Internet time synchronization" option is configured, therefore we need systemd, you need to rethink your position. :)
FWIW, the problem you're describing with that option is real, and was revisited in later versions. As of 14.04 it was still broken, but for a different reason having to do with permissions on the ntpd install. However, fixing that problem doesn't require systemd, it requires fixing *that* problem.
I am not against systemd per se, I honestly don't know enough about it to form an intelligent opinion. The line of reasoning (I believe to be) espoused here is quite concerning, "If there is a problem, we need to bring the solution into systemd." To the extent that's accurate, it's overwhelmingly likely to be wrong.
I could say a lot more about Unix system design philosophies from my time in the FreeBSD project, but this thread started off-topic, and has only gotten worse. :)
Doug
Current thread:
- Re: Linux: concerns over systemd adoption and Debian's decision to switch, (continued)
- Re: Linux: concerns over systemd adoption and Debian's decision to switch Miles Fidelman (Oct 22)
- Re: Linux: concerns over systemd adoption and Debian's decision to switch Jeffrey Ollie (Oct 22)
- Re: Linux: concerns over systemd adoption and Debian's decision to switch Joe Loiacono (Oct 23)
- Re: Linux: concerns over systemd adoption and Debian's decision to switch Jay Ashworth (Oct 24)
- Re: Linux: concerns over systemd adoption and Debian's decision to switch Chris Adams (Oct 24)
- Re: Linux: concerns over systemd adoption and Debian's decision to switch Jay Ashworth (Oct 27)
- Re: Linux: concerns over systemd adoption and Debian's decision to switch Miles Fidelman (Oct 27)
- Re: Linux: concerns over systemd adoption and Debian's decision to switch Simon Lyall (Oct 22)
- Re: Linux: concerns over systemd adoption and Debian's decision to switch Stephen Satchell (Oct 22)
- Re: Linux: concerns over systemd adoption and Debian's decision to switch Simon Lyall (Oct 23)
- Re: Linux: concerns over systemd adoption and Debian's decision to switch Doug Barton (Oct 23)
- Re: Linux: concerns over systemd adoption and Debian's decision to switch Valdis . Kletnieks (Oct 22)
- Re: Linux: concerns over systemd adoption and Debian's decision to switch Jeffrey Ollie (Oct 22)
- Re: Linux: concerns over systemd adoption and Debian's decision to switch Matt Palmer (Oct 23)
- Re: Linux: concerns over systemd adoption and Debian's decision to switch Robert Kisteleki (Oct 23)
- Message not available
- Re: Linux: concerns over systemd adoption and Debian's decision to switch Larry Sheldon (Oct 23)
- Re: Linux: concerns over systemd adoption and Debian's decision to switch Jay Ashworth (Oct 24)
- Re: Linux: concerns over systemd adoption and Debian's decision to switch Stephen Satchell (Oct 22)
- Re: Linux: concerns over systemd adoption and Debian's decision to switch Israel G. Lugo (Oct 22)
- Re: Linux: concerns over systemd adoption and Debian's decision to switch Miles Fidelman (Oct 23)