Re: CenturyLink Fiber Latency Issues (Seattle, WA)

[Tim Burke <tim () mid net>]

Agreed with this... if anything, all of the repeated abuse causing poor performance for neighbors could eventually 
result in termination of service. I'm sure CenturyLink would love to sell OP a DIA that they can use to run Tor and P2P 
to their heart's content.

________________________________
From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+tim=mid.net () nanog org> on behalf of Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuhnke () gmail com>
Sent: Saturday, November 6, 2021 1:19:17 PM
To: Neel Chauhan; nanog () nanog org list
Subject: Re: CenturyLink Fiber Latency Issues (Seattle, WA)

Respectfully, if you start broaching topics like suing your residential ISP because a "best effort" no SLA last mile 
GPON service doesn't meet the same performance as a 1GbE active-E symmetric 1310/LR hand off for a server in a 
datacenter, the most likely thing you're going to get is dropped by the ISP entirely.

I know that's what I would recommend if I were your ISP and you threatened lawsuits at my customer service 
representatives. "Sorry, but as of $DATE_30_DAYS_IN_FUTURE we will no longer be able to meet your needs and will 
discontinue service and billing for $YOUR_ACCOUNT_NUMBER".


On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 2:59 PM Neel Chauhan <neel () neelc org<mailto:neel () neelc org>> wrote:
My OPNsense box has a really large NAT table, more than there are IPv4
ports, presumably due to the way FreeBSD's pf works. CenturyLink's
routers are worse in this regard since NAT tables are small.

Even if I were to run Tor on my CenturyLink connection, my neighbors are
affected as well. When I was running Tor at "full speed" with these
spikes, neighbors had truck rolls.

I have ordered Verizon "LTE Home" as a temporary "workaround", namely to
move my Wi-Fi traffic to it while I restart Tor. The reason for this is
to force neighbors to put in repair tickets to force a GPON capacity
increase.

It's not nice to my neighbors, but I don't **realy** have another option
(even running Tor I don't want to make it too unbearablel for
neighbors). Maybe the other options are to (a) pay $329/mo for Comcast
Gigabit Pro and get stuck in a 2-year contract and a steep install fee
or (b) litigate that I could lose since I'm not a lawyer and don't have
a J.D. from Harvard Law School specializing in telecom law, both which
are impractical and expensive.

I was about to sue CenturyLink in small claims, but instead decided to
get Verizon LTE Home for 2 months while CenturyLink "fixes" their fiber
network while restarting Tor there. Have the neighbors put in service
requests to force CL to fix their network, but don't put in a request
myself so the "solution" won't be to blame me.

While I may have to worry about an ETF with LTE Home, it's cheaper than
Gigabit Pro, and of $300 for two months including ETF is still cheaper
than $329/mo for two years.

It's a gamble but may pay off.

-Neel

On 2021-11-03 07:00, TJ Trout wrote:
> I second this, most best effort Broadband cpe equipment will choke
> with lots of concurrent connections
>
> On Tue, Nov 2, 2021, 8:25 PM P C <pc50000 () gmail com<mailto:pc50000 () gmail com>> wrote:
>
> > If this is connection count related only, It is most likely an issue
> > with the CPE (router), NAT table, or similar.
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 8:21 AM Neel Chauhan <neel () neelc org<mailto:neel () neelc org>> wrote:
> >
> > > I tried that back in September, it didn't work. It doesn't happen
> > > on my
> > > hop but the one after that. Even a second GPON connection shows
> > > the
> > > issues if one is running the offending traffic.
> > >
> > > The issue occurs even if I'm using 50 Mbps out of my 940.
> > >
> > > It may be bufferbloat on CL's side but they keep denying the
> > > issue.
> > >
> > > I guess I'll have to break the bank and get Comcast Gigabit Pro.
> > >
> > > CenturyLink should just get bought out by another telco, like how
> > > Cablevision got bought by Altice.
> > >
> > > -Neel
> > >
> > > On 2021-11-01 20:52, Ryan Hamel wrote:
> > > > Neel,
> > > >
> > > > Sounds like buffer bloat.
> > > >
> > > > Run a speed test, whatever is your maximum for your download and
> > > upload
> > > > take
> > > > 10% away from it, and setup traffic shaping in OPNsense
> > > > (https://docs.opnsense.org/manual/shaping.html) with those
> > > values. If
> > > > the
> > > > issue goes away, then you're exceeding the buffer of
> > > CenturyLink's
> > > > device
> > > > with the bursts of traffic.
> > > >
> > > > Ryan
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+ryan=rkhtech.org () nanog org<mailto:rkhtech.org () nanog org>> On Behalf
> > > Of
> > > > Neel
> > > > Chauhan
> > > > Sent: Monday, November 1, 2021 6:44 PM
> > > > To: nanog () nanog org<mailto:nanog () nanog org>
> > > > Subject: CenturyLink Fiber Latency Issues (Seattle, WA)
> > > >
> > > > Hi NANOG Mailing List,
> > > >
> > > > I don't know if any of you work at CenturyLink/Lumen, very less
> > > on
> > > > their
> > > > Fiber network in Seattle, WA. However, here's my story.
> > > >
> > > > If I attempt to run certain applications that use 1000, or 10000
> > > TCP
> > > > connections, I get latency spikes. It is based on how many
> > > connections,
> > > > but
> > > > also how much bandwidth is used. This means certain things like
> > > Tor
> > > > relays
> > > > are off limits to me (which I wish to run).
> > > >
> > > > On an idle connection, the PingPlotter outputs look like this:
> > > > https://centurylinklatencyissues.com/image-000.png
> > > >
> > > > If I attempt to run BitTorrent with 1000 connections in Deluge,
> > > > PingPlotter
> > > > looks like this:
> > > > https://centurylinklatencyissues.com/image-002.png
> > > >
> > > > Getting support, or even executive contacts to admit the issue
> > > hasn't
> > > > worked. They all love to blame my equipment or applications,
> > > when CL
> > > > routers
> > > > also show the issue when I run the same things whereas my same
> > > exact
> > > > OPNsense box on Google Fiber Webpass running Tor at another
> > > address had
> > > > no
> > > > issues whatsoever, and I can ping other Tor relays on
> > > CenturyLink AS209
> > > > just
> > > > fine (from a VPS).
> > > >
> > > > The most competent person I dealt with was actually one tech. He
> > > told
> > > > me
> > > > there was "capacity issues" in our neighborhood, and that's the
> > > reason
> > > > for
> > > > the issues. However, nothing was done about it afterwards, I'm
> > > guessing
> > > > since I turned off my Tor relay after the visit to avoid
> > > complaints
> > > > from
> > > > family members.
> > > >
> > > > On an AT&T forum, people have said GPON gives latency
> > > spikes/packet
> > > > loss on
> > > > congestion:
> https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r33242889-How-rare-is-GPON-XGSPON-saturatio
> > > > n
> > > >
> > > > The capacity managers in Seattle are literally dragging their
> > > feet:
> > > > it's
> > > > 100x worse than AT&T's 802.1X. I know AT&T and CenturyLink don't
> > >
> > > > compete,
> > > > but if I had to choose between AT&T Fiber and CenturyLink, I'll
> > > take
> > > > AT&T in
> > > > a heartbeat, no ifs, no buts, even if I have to use AT&T's
> > > crappy
> > > > router
> > > > instead of my OPNsense box.
> > > >
> > > > Going back, do any of you who work at CenturyLink/Lumen can get
> > > me to
> > > > the
> > > > right people, hopefully the capacity managers in Seattle?
> > > >
> > > > I could go with Comcast, but it's either (a) 35 Mbps uploads or
> > > (b)
> > > > $329/mo
> > > > for "Gigabit Pro" with a 2-year contract and a steep install
> > > fee. I am
> > > > seriously considering Gigabit Pro even if it breaks the bank,
> > > but hope
> > > > I
> > > > won't have to go there.
> > > >
> > > > I don't need 2 Gbps and would rather pay $65 than $329. 300-500
> > > Mbps
> > > > uploads
> > > > when I need it is the sweet spot for me (even without Tor) which
> > > CL
> > > > GPON
> > > > should easily handle without a sweat. I also don't exactly
> > > > **trust** Comcast, they're a horrible company in many metrics,
> > > but in
> > > > some
> > > > ways Comcast is more competent than CenturyLink.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > >
> > > > Neel Chauhan