Penetration Testing mailing list archives
RE: My Frustrations
From: "Shenk, Jerry A" <jshenk () decommunications com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 14:40:21 -0500
That's a "life question" - in any walk of life, how do you tell the frauds from the real thing. We just went though an election cycle where half of the population voted for the most incompetent person...or at least that's what the other half though...including me. I think somehow those of us who think we aren't the frauds need to learn to communicate the value of what we do in business terms. Typically, "geeks" really don't do very well at that. We say things like, "that needs to be upgraded 'cuz it's not secure." While the business man says, "hey, my order entry people can enter orders just fine on that win98 box...it's worked for years, why change it." Maybe there is a technical reason to upgrade, maybe not but whatever, we need to be able to EXPLAIN why it's better. And, in pen-testing, we need to explain WHY a pen-test is better than a vulnerability scan and explain what the difference is...'cuz that "fraud" is gonna just run a VA scan, call it a pen-test and collect his fee. -----Original Message----- From: listbounce () securityfocus com [mailto:listbounce () securityfocus com] On Behalf Of Adriel T. Desautels Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 7:37 AM To: Joseph McCray Cc: pen-test list Subject: Re: My Frustrations Hi Joe, While I appreciate your response I only partially agree with you; and frankly I wasn't asking you for a lesson in business. What I feel that you are missing in your post is the problem of inaccuracy and even lies. That problem confuses the customer and often times ends up landing the customer in a very poor security state, then they wonder why they get hacked. If you have two providers, one of which is very high quality and one is a copy-cat fraud, how does the customer tell the difference between the two? The problem isn't really a problem until the copy-cat starts presenting the same face and message as the quality provider. At that point it is not a matter of the good provider conveying the message better (because the message gets copied) its a matter of the customers learning how to tell fact from fiction, but they can't do that without being educated first. But what happens when ten more copy-cat providers surface and they follow the same exact messaging as the quality provider? What happens when those providers then offer services at a cost that is 30-80% less than the cost of services being delivered by the quality provider? The answer isn't that the quality provider gets too hurt because "we" don't, the answer is that customers get hurt by a false sense of security. After all the cost of a single compromise can cost people their jobs and even put businesses under. Joe, just to be clear here, my motivation isn't to create a clear marketing message or to establish my companies name, thats been done very successfully. My goal is to educate the customers so that they can avoid being scammed. I can't tell you how many times we've seen third party deliverables that were the massaged product of automated tools and scanners. Hell, we've even seen deliverables with great big yellow smile faces at the bottom!!! So in closing, no the incompetent security professional does not convey their message better but instead they convey the exact same message and undercut the real provider thus hurting their customers. But what do they care, they are in it for the money not for the customer's sake right? Anyway, like I said before, we're working on a white paper that should help customers to draw the line. When its finished I'll make sure to post it to the list for all to read and comment on. On Dec 19, 2008, at 1:58 AM, Joseph McCray wrote:
Last year I posted a similar message to this list titled "I want the PT list back....":
http://www.derkeiler.com/Mailing-Lists/securityfocus/pen-test/2007-12/ms g00052.html
My frustration was similar to yours. I just missed how much I used to learn on this list. The security community has changed, and now the bleeding edge information is spread out across tons of blogs and the IRC servers where people dropped 0-day in the channel has transitioned to private silc servers. As I said in my previous post there are some REALLY smart people on this list that have forgotten more about security than I and a lot of other people on this list will ever learn. I used to b*tch about how I was so tired of reading the "I've just been hired to do a pentest - how do I scan a host behind a firewall" posts questions that I was about to swear myself off of this list. I had a buddy that pulled me aside and just told me - "You are just getting better as a security professional so you aren't in awe like you used to be." There is still plenty of stuff talked about on this list for newbies to learn from. Occasionally there is something that even pretty experienced people can learn from as well. As far as how you handle competing against incompetent security professionals (that often underbid you - no I'm not bitter...heheheheh...) and how that affects your business - now that I'm dealing with a lot of business development - I'm really learning that you are only as good as what you can convey to the customer. The customer isn't a security expert, and often can't differentiate between you and someone that's not as technical as you. In terms of business - that incompetent security professional either conveyed his value to the customer better than you did, or got the customer to believe that they didn't need to go with a larger more well known firm. As much as we are geeks and love geeky stuff - this is business. You have to be able to convey your firm's value to the customer. Show them the books you've written, the tools you've developed, your whitepapers, conference presentations, and demonstrate your knowledge of regulatory compliance. Provide credible references in your customer's industry, and most importantly prove how you add value with your professionalism, your customer service, your attention to detail, and your ability to explain complex problems to developers and administrators. If you are really that much better than someone you think is incompetent you shouldn't have an issue conveying that to the customer. I'm not saying all of this to be harsh - this has been a hard lesson for me to learn as well and I still struggle with it a lot. Hope this helps..... Joe On Wed, 2008-12-17 at 14:19 -0500, Adriel T. Desautels wrote:I recently wrote this blog entry and wanted to get some comments from readers of this list. I'm frustrated with the caliber of the people that are offering security services and posing as experts, thats the subject of the post. Please comment, insult, whatever... I'm interested. http://snosoft.blogspot.com/ Adriel T. Desautels ad_lists () netragard com
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Adriel T. Desautels ad_lists () netragard com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This list is sponsored by: Cenzic Security Trends Report from Cenzic Stay Ahead of the Hacker Curve! Get the latest Q2 2008 Trends Report now www.cenzic.com/landing/trends-report ------------------------------------------------------------------------ **DISCLAIMER This e-mail message and any files transmitted with it are intended for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed and may contain information that is privileged, proprietary and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not use, copy or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender and delete this e-mail message. The contents do not represent the opinion of D&E except to the extent that it relates to their official business. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This list is sponsored by: Cenzic Security Trends Report from Cenzic Stay Ahead of the Hacker Curve! Get the latest Q2 2008 Trends Report now www.cenzic.com/landing/trends-report ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Current thread:
- RE: My Frustrations, (continued)
- RE: My Frustrations Shenk, Jerry A (Dec 18)
- Re: My Frustrations tony_l_turner (Dec 18)
- Re: My Frustrations Adriel T. Desautels (Dec 19)
- Re: My Frustrations Roman Medina-Heigl Hernandez (Dec 23)
- Re: My Frustrations Adriel T. Desautels (Dec 23)
- Re: My Frustrations Roman Medina-Heigl Hernandez (Dec 23)
- RE: My Frustrations Shenk, Jerry A (Dec 18)
- RE: My Frustrations Sat Jagat Singh (Dec 19)
- Re: My Frustrations Pete Herzog (Dec 20)
- Re: My Frustrations Adriel T. Desautels (Dec 19)
- RE: My Frustrations Shenk, Jerry A (Dec 19)
- Re: My Frustrations Adriel T. Desautels (Dec 19)