RE: Defining scope of web application pentest (now scope of an annual medical exam)

["Clement Dupuis" <cdupuis () cccure org>]

Good day Andy,

I totally agree with you that saving life and saving data is very different.

The point was not to map to an exact profession but more to illustrate that
whenever you deal with someone who provides a services and offer such
service, you expect they have the skills and the ability to render the
service.

Take care

Best regards

Clement


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andy Steingruebl [mailto:steingra () gmail com]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 10:13 PM
> To: Clement Dupuis
> Cc: webappsec () securityfocus com
> Subject: Re: Defining scope of web application pentest (now scope of an
> annual medical exam)
>
> On Dec 9, 2007 5:36 AM, Clement Dupuis <cdupuis () cccure org> wrote:
> > Hum.....  It amazes me that one would offer a service call ETHICAL
> hacking
> > and ask such a question as the one posted.  Unfortunately it seems to
> happen
> > too many times and all the times.  If we wish to be recognize as
> > professional one day this has to change for sure.  Let me twist the
> original
> > posting a bit and pretend you're doing your annual medical exam and
> your
> > doctor would post the following on a medical mailing list that you
> subscribe
> > to:
> >
> > ============== Beginning of twisted message =================
> > From: listbounce () securityfocus com
> [mailto:listbounce () securityfocus com] On
> > Behalf Of a Crazy Doctor
> > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 12:48 PM
> > To: webappsec () securityfocus com
> > Subject: Defining scope of an Annual medical exam
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Can anyone please tell what needs to be considered while defining the
> scope
> > of an annual medical exam. Here I am concerned only about the
> cholesterol
> > level and heart beat that would exclude every other bit related to
> the
> > infrastructure (such as any other vital parts, diabetes, or the
> overall
> > body). Also how do we calculate the effort required to perform an
> annual
> > medical exam. The things which I think may be considered are the age
> of the
> > patient, past history, etc.
> > But what else can be considered?
> >
> > Any inputs would be highly appreciated.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Crazy Doctor
> > ============= End of Twisted message ==========================
> >
> > WOULD YOU ACCEPT AND USE SERVICE FROM SUCH A DOCTOR?
> >
> > Why is this acceptable in the Security Testing profession and why do
> we see
> > this all the time?
> >
> > I think before you offer service to clients you have to build the
> service
> > first.
> >
> > Hopefully the security testing world will mature quickly over time if
> we
> > wish to even attempt to call ourselves PROFESSIONALS.
> >
> > Best regards
> >
> > Clement
>
>
> While I do see your point - medical practice isn't necessarily the
> thing you'd want to pick here.  Medical practices differ greatly
> across even industrialized countries.  What tests are considered
> routine, how often they should be administered, at what age, etc.
> What variances are acceptable and at what point do we call in other
> diagnostics that cost more, etc.  These are topics that are actively
> debated in the medical community as well.
>
> A better example would be:
>
>  - Can someone tell me what should be done at a 30,000 mile checkup
> for a 2006 Ford Focus?
>
> Sure, we can pull out Ford's manual and tell you exactly.
>
> Not sure you'll find a lot of other areas that are quite as cut and
> dried.  I'm not arguing that we couldn't get better at it, but you
> might want to pick a better example because medicine isn't nearly as
> cut and dried as you'd make it appear.
>
> - Andy


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