Re: Get your computer viruses here!

[Drsolly <drsollyp () drsolly com>]

> I don't know if he has a legal obligation to try and determine how  

Certainly in the UK, and I'd guess in the USA, the law has a concept with 
a name like "criminal negligence", which is applied to a situation where 
you could reasonably have known that your actions could lead to hazards 
for other people, but you didn't take any reasonable precautions.

Here's "aiding and abetting"

http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/aiding_abetting_accessory.html

And here's "criminal negligence"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_negligence

I don't know the exact form of words that would be used in the USA for 
this.

Any reasonable person could tell you that Blackhat McNasty will register 
for this site using a false name and throwaway email address, download 
some malware, and use that to damage other people's computers.

If the person running the web site has a legal opinion that he's in the
clear, I'd be interested to see a scan of that document. Could he, 
perhaps, post it on his web site so that everyone can see it?

> his code is being used; the moral obligation is of course outside the  
> realm of law and thus completely subjective, in the scheme of  
> things.  The futility and the moral hazards of trying to suppress the  
> dissemination of information are well-documented (remember the  
> debates over the _Anarchist's Cookbook_ in print media, and similar  
> brouhahas online?); the 'cure' is often worse than the 'disease'.

So, what is your objection (if you have one) to someone running a web site 
with a huge and diverse collection of malicious software, and in giving 
access to this site to anyone who want it? 
 
> On Dec 28, 2005, at 7:12 AM, Drsolly wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 27 Dec 2005, val smith wrote:
> >
> > > Hi there, thanks for the interest in my site.
> > >
> > > (Drsolly I was sad to not recieve any more replies from you, I had  
> > > hoped to
> > > keep dialogue open:( )
> >
> > You seemed to have already made up your mind, and I wasn't having any
> > effect by talking to you.
> >
> > > I pretty much agree with what Gadi stated and definitly the  
> > > intention of the
> > > site is white-hat. A simple google search will satisfy most peoples
> > > blackhat/vx needs much better than my site ever could.
> > >
> > > If you login and look around you will see a few things:
> > >
> > > 1.) It requires a login to access samples and the way its  
> > > configured they
> > > cant be downloaded automatically from worms, etc. (if someone  
> > > finds a bug in
> > > this let me know, ill fix it)
> >
> > But Blackhat McNasty can create a login, and download everything he  
> > wants.
> >
> > > 2.) Accesses are logged (limited usefulness) but its simple for me  
> > > to turn
> > > accounts / IP's off if I see a problem.
> >
> > But Blackhat McNasty downloading a bunch of malware won't be seen  
> > by you
> > as a problem - why should it? You're under the impression that
> > distributing malware is equivalent to free speech.
> >
> > > 3.) You'll see the focus is on analysis, identification and  
> > > signatures
> > > rather than simply a malware distribution site
> >
> > Blackhat McNasty doesn't care what your focus is, all he wants it to
> > download the malware that you're kindly providing
> >
> > > 4.) I think im providing some useful services out there. I submit  
> > > copies of
> > > my samples/analysis to the A/V companies and others like ISC
> >
> > Blackhat McNasty doesn't care what other services you provide.
> >
> > > 5.) I've begun converstations with other projects to see how we can
> > > collaborate (mwcollect, nepenthes, etc.)
> >
> > Blackhat McNasty doesn't care who you're getting samples from, but  
> > other
> > projects might be concerned about who you're distributing them to.  
> > I hope
> > you're telling them your policy on redistributing malware?
> >
> > > 6.) I don't develop malware (unless you count exploits as malware  
> > > but I dont
> > > distribute these here)
> >
> > Blackhat McNasty doesn't care whatty doesn't care who wrote them, he's
> > just happy that he can get them from you.
> >
> > The big thing missing here is any attempt to determine whether  
> > Blackhat
> > McNasty is likely to use the malware that you provide him with, for
> > malicious purposes.
> >
> > > Thankfully the country I am in still allows free speech and this  
> > > thing isn't
> > > illegal according to my research and the opinion of lawyers I have  
> > > spoken
> > > with.
> >
> > Speech is free here too, but that doesn't entitle me to whack  
> > someone over
> > the head and call it "speech". Nor does it entitle you to provide a
> > malicious person with the weapons to cause destruction on other  
> > people's
> > computers, unless you live in a country which doesn't have computer  
> > misuse
> > laws. You don't mention what country you're in, so I can't say. You  
> > have a
> > moral and legal obligation to determine whether Blackhat McNasty is  
> > likely
> > to act maliciously with the malware you provide him with. You're not
> > meeting that obligation.
> >
> > > Gadi its true we dont know each other, however I think we have  
> > > some friends
> > > in common. I'd look forward to buying you a beer in Vegas this  
> > > summer :)
> > >
> > > Anyway I look forward to hearing more opinions, input and  
> > > suggestions.
> > > (contributions hopefully?)
> >
> > I'd be really quite surprised, given your intention to run a malware
> > exchange open to anyone who wants to use it, if you'll get much in  
> > the way
> > of contributions.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Fun and Misc security discussion for OT posts.
> > https://linuxbox.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/funsec
> > Note: funsec is a public and open mailing list.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Roland Dobbins <rdobbins () cisco com> // 408.527.6376 voice
>
>       Everything has been said.  But nobody listens.
>
>                     -- Roger Shattuck
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fun and Misc security discussion for OT posts.
> https://linuxbox.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/funsec
> Note: funsec is a public and open mailing list.

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