Re: What Happened to The 56 Men Who Signed the Declarationof Independence ?

["Dude VanWinkle" <dudevanwinkle () gmail com>]

On 7/6/07, Brian Loe <knobdy () gmail com> wrote:
> On 7/5/07, Dude VanWinkle <dudevanwinkle () gmail com> wrote:
>
> > Still there are more than a few discrepancies... some of these guys
> > went back to the British Side (if only to escape hanging). I dont
> > think snopes is nitpicking, but rather being historically accurate.
>
> It is nitpicking because it misses the point - they put their names on
> a document that could - if they failed - be their death warrant. These
> weren't stupid people and they weren't people with nothing to lose.
> THAT is the point.

No, the point is that you shouldn't base your life and patriotism on
something that is just history written by the victors.


> > It
> > is important that we not worship the past, but rather see it for what
> > it is: the glorification of a bunch of honkeys beating up everyone in
> > sight in order to steal from each other.
>
> WTF are you talking about? If you want to browbeat Adams' methods, do
> so, but in this case, for my money, the ends justified the means.

If the ends justified the means, how come all of George Washington's
fighting resulted in establishing a Republic
(http://tinyurl.com/2jsyzm) that, if he were alive today, would spend
his entire life trying to overthrow from some militia enclave in
montana? http://tinyurl.com/2jb5to

> > (It was Brit-on-Brit violence
> > based on a 5% tax hike on Tea or some such, in order for Brit #2 <the
> > americans> to eventually charge a 7% sales tax on Tea, in addition to
> > 30% of a working mans income themselves>
>
> Taxing income was not on the minds of these 56 signers. In fact, I'm
> fairly sure they would consider that theft and overthrown such a
> government. We haven't done that because we're not cut of the same
> cloth. Just one more reason to hold these men in such high esteem!

> Further, the level of taxes weren't at issue so much as their purpose.
> The colonies needed things that it depended on the King for - it
> wasn't getting them even though they continued to pay their taxes, and
> their ever increasing taxes. When the colonies complained the king did
> the opposite of what he should have done and penalized them some more.
> Seems to me that if the king hadn't been such an a-hole (or diseased
> and insane, as has been suggested) we might look a lot more like
> Canada or Australia. Just a guess, but there were plenty of reluctant
> patriots to support such ideas.

Right, but you now postulate that taking care of the populace is a bad
idea, even when venerating the some idea when viewed through histories
blemished and diseased eye..

> >
> > -JP<who is very proud _not_ to have killed anyone for anything>
>
> I'm not sure why you would be proud of such a nothing. Does that mean
> you look down on those who did have to kill, either in self-defense or
> the defense of their country?

Err, to quoth the first commendable female sci-fi author: Fire Bad!

If you kill someone, no matter whether you are right or wrong; their
children will hate you forever, thereby extending the conflict for
another generation. Violence should only be used as a last resort.

> > P.s: Unless you fought in WWII, you werent "preserving" anything
> > except the flow of spice, as I cant recall america being seriously
> > threatened since then>
>
> Yep, you do. That's pretty sad. Your understanding of States and the
> wars they wage, and therefore the people that serve, is seriously
> flawed. I would suggest you visit your nearest VFW hall and buy beers
> for everyone in attendance in exchange for their stories
> (unfortunately these places are pretty "dead" these days, forgive the
> pun). You MIGHT come away with some understanding of what it means to
> serve.

Right, if my country survives by enslaving the proletariat of another,
I should revel in that fact and support it. The spice must flow, and I
should enjoy it..

> Btw, Vietnam and Korea were both our attempts to defend the world from
> the evil of communism. Our allies in Korea were the Koreans themselves
> who were, are and probably always will be thankful. Just because you
> care not for any of these people a half world away doesn't mean they
> didn't care about their children and want to see them grow up and
> become successful. Those who didn't now live in the darkest spot on a
> satellite photograph and face constant starvation - while their
> benevolent leader sips expensive bourbon.

Right, even by questioning history, I am now a communist..
http://tinyurl.com/377gur way to go!

> In Vietnam our allies were the French (buggered again, eh) and the
> Vietnamese themselves. In that case, too many people over here
> believed the same as you - that these people aren't important to us.
> We pulled out and many, many died. We never lost the war, we pulled
> out, under the pressure of cowards over here, period.

Ha ha ha, damn french.. Man you make a great american!

> For me, whether you served in peacetime or in a war, for the U.S., one
> of its states or England, Israel, whomever - I solute you. I do not
> solute you for having killed anyone either - those are stories rarely
> told and for good reason - but, as one naval tribute says, for having
> made the trip. I hope you all had a good 4th and that, at some point
> while dodging flack from friendly firework fire, you patted yourself
> on the back for having contributed to the celebration at the highest
> level...though I know you didn't, and that's my point. Thank you.

Err, to quoth the first commendable female sci-fi author: Fire Bad!

If you kill someone, no matter whether you are right or wrong; their
children will hate you forever, thereby extending the conflict for
another generation. Violence should only be used as a last resort.

Man, thank you brian for showing the ability to think for yourself. I
was about to give up  and say "kill em all" but you saved me from that
abyss..

Love Ja,

-JP<the doucebag>
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