RE: Re[2]: French ruling party having a riot on the Internet

["Brian Azzopardi" <brian () gfi com>]

G'day,

> It's about the same thing as saying racial riots are about to explode any day in Los Angeles, or to say that US 
> political stability is undermined by the > large numbers of current scandals in the administration.

Well, when racial riots did explode in LA they was indeed a threat to political stability. As for the scandals, they 
undermine public confidence, what little is left, in the administration - nothing to do with wider stability yet.


> The European countries that didn't go to war did not base their decision on the presence of immigrants on their soil. 

I sure hope so! It would be a sad day when the foreign policy of France was dictated by immigrants. Steyn was just 
being his neocon self when he wrote that bit of fiction.


> What those US pundits don't fully realize is that today, huge parts of the European society have unfortunately become 
> profoundly anti-American.

Most bits of Europe were always anti-American. The latest, misguided, adventure fanned it some more.


> the piece omits the fact that the French Muslim organizations, both officials and informal, have been _very_ active 
> trying to calm down the riots.

Even if their words are effective (doubtful), they will not solve the root cause of the riots. The structural causes 
will not be solved by having imams issuing fatwas against the rioters, but by racial integration and sounder economic 
policies, which brings me to:


> The problem is essentially a socio-economical issue in France.

Indeed, that is what I said in the first email: non-integrated immigrants. When combined with a welfare model which 
does not place enough emphasis on creating jobs, then you get ghettos and disaffected 'French' youths. I don't consider 
them French for the simple reason that their loyalties ultimately lay elsewhere.


Regards,
Brian



-----Original Message-----
From: Pierre Vandevenne [mailto:pierre () datarescue com] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 10:07 AM
To: Brian Azzopardi
Cc: funsec () linuxbox org
Subject: Re[2]: [funsec] French ruling party having a riot on the Internet

Good Day,

Tuesday, November 8, 2005, 9:26:59 AM, you wrote:

BA> tensions to go with it. If you stick to Steyn's point: that European 
BA> political stability is being undermined by large numbers of 
BA> non-integrated immigrants than it is hardly controversial.

It's about the same thing as saying racial riots are about to explode any day in Los Angeles, or to say that US 
political stability is undermined by the large numbers of current scandals in the administration.

BA> Surely you don't want a Van Gogh* on French soil?

There are several already - Are you sure you are informed?

Now, on to the piece

The European countries that didn't go to war did not base their decision on the presence of immigrants on their soil. 
The decision was based on the following

A) there was absolutely no intelligence supporting the war. This is something some Americans seem to discover now. It 
was generally accepted here.

B) the population, including the white affluent one, the guys driving BMWs and Mercedes, businessmen etc, was, in its 
vast majority opposed to war. Opposed to war in general, and especially in that particular case.

What those US pundits don't fully realize is that today, huge parts of the European society have unfortunately become 
profoundly anti-american. We do most of our business with US companies and I have been criticized by other local 
company managers on several occasions.
That's of course unfortunate, because we ultimately share the same value, but the average guy around here likes China 
better than the US nowadays.

As far as the supposed current French "terrorists" are concerned, the piece omits the fact that the French Muslim 
organizations, both officials and informal, have been _very_ active trying to calm down the riots.

In the mix, it is of course possible to find a bad muslim, just as it is possible to find extreme rightist looking for 
a fight, or leftists wanting to destabilize Sarkozy.

Are these days specials? Well, yes and no. Look at this

http://www.regards.fr/archives/1995/199507/199507cit01.html

"Violences, émeutes, vandalisme, incendies, bavures policières, morts..."

"Violences, riots, vandalism, arson, police fuckups, deaths..."

Sounds familiar? That was written 10 years ago, in 1995, about the locations that make the news today. Nothing is 
really new.

The problem is essentially a socio-economical issue in France.
Gettho-ized poverty, combined with a government that failed about everything it promised and back-pedaled on social 
reforms. It has very little to do with the big "Good vs Evil" wars some US pundits like to see everywhere.

A good, balanced, analysis can be found here

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9938405/site/newsweek/



--
Best regards,
 Pierre                            mailto:pierre () datarescue com


  
This mail was checked for viruses by GFI MailSecurity. 
GFI also develops anti-spam software (GFI MailEssentials), a fax server (GFI FAXmaker), and network security and 
management software (GFI LANguard) - www.gfi.com 


_______________________________________________
Fun and Misc security discussion for OT posts.
https://linuxbox.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/funsec
Note: funsec is a public and open mailing list.