Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID?

["C Q" <kyle.c.quest () gmail com>]

By no means I meant to say that "wealthy" are saints... In most cases all
they care is money...
and they will step on anybody just to make more money. Our system has indeed
been set up
to benefit the wealthy. There's no question about that...

Indeed, if you look at a lot of recessions wealthy are the reasons behind
it... most specifically
it's their greed... Stock speculation is the perfect example of that. Take
what happened in 2000
with dot coms... they were the driving force behind the speculation, which
resulted in a crash
taking many tech companies along with dot coms. The effects on the middle
class were huge
and we still haven't recovered... and we won't...

On 5/18/07, Randy Abrams <abrams () eset com> wrote:
>  Naive is much different than a nut job. The guys behind every recession
> had masters in economics, or at least advisors with such :)
>
> Frankly, right now I don't have time to go back through the years of data,
> but with the research skills required to get your degrees, I am quite
> certain that if you wanted to take the side of the debate that shows
> the evils of the pro-wealthy tax system, you could easily dig up an armory
> of statistics.
>
> But, for one simple scenario, If you work at an employer with a group
> health plan then you can potentially participate in an FSA. If you work for
> an employer who does not have a significant health care program you cannot
> participate. The result is that government only allows the tax advantage of
> an FSA to Americans who work for medium and larger employers, giving them an
> unfair competitive edge over small employers and wrongfully denying millions
> of Americans tax relief for medical costs based upon their employer. This
> affect a hell of a lot more Americans than illegal aliens. I'm sure you can
> continue the list if you care to.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Randy
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* C Q [mailto:kyle.c.quest () gmail com]
> *Sent:* Friday, May 18, 2007 5:59 PM
> *To:* Randy Abrams
> *Cc:* Alex Eckelberry; privacy () whitestar linuxbox org
> *Subject:* Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID?
>
> It would be more useful if you provided any logical support, examples,
> facts, or figures
> to support your statement. Instead you simply said, "it's the wealthy who
> are guilty and
> you are nut job". One of my degrees is actually a Master's in Economics...
> which indicates,
> at the very least, that I have a basic mental capacity to think logically
> and I have some domain knowledge
> when it comes to economical impact of various demographic groups.
>
> On 5/18/07, Randy Abrams <abrams () eset com> wrote:
> >
> >  It's the pro-wealthy tax system that is getting rid of the middle
> > class. The illegal immigrants are the red herring that the naive buy by the
> > metric ton from those who wish to keep the rich rich and the misguided
> > fighting those who are not their enemies.
> >
> > Not saying to ignore immigration laws, but focus on the significant
> > problems, not the fish sandwiches you've been gnawing on.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Randy
> >
> >
> >  ------------------------------
> > *From:* C Q [mailto:kyle.c.quest () gmail com]
> > *Sent:* Friday, May 18, 2007 5:38 PM
> > *To:* Alex Eckelberry
> > *Cc:* Randy Abrams; privacy () whitestar linuxbox org
> > *Subject:* Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID?
> >
> >  There are two issues here:
> > 1. National ID and its benefits
> > 2. Illegal aliens and their impact on the lives of the people who live
> > in the US.
> >
> > I got distracted a bit with issue number even though it's not about the
> > National ID itself.
> > However, it is a very very very serious problem... more than you may
> > realize. The illegal
> > aliens are not keeping this country going... They have the opposite long
> > term effect.
> > They are destroying this country and destroying the middle class and the
> > hopes
> > and the opportunities for the the US citizens.
> >
> > It's important to make a distinction between immigrants, people who come
> > here
> > legally, and illegal aliens. America needs immigrants. They provide
> > fresh sources
> > of brain power and fresh sources of man power. Immigrants and their
> > drive the achieve
> > their dreams is what made this country great.
> >
> > When it comes to illegal aliens there are a number of negative side
> > effects...
> > both short term and long term. Once of the short term side effects is
> > the stagnating
> > wages in the very industries where some businesses and defenders of the
> > illegals
> > claim that we don't have enough people to do the job and where Americans
> > don't
> > want to do the job. In the construction, service, and agriculture the
> > wages have stayed
> > the same or even declined over the last 20 years (taking into the
> > consideration the inflation
> > and other factors). The basic rules of economics indicate that when
> > there's short supply
> > the demand results in increased prices and in this case it should have
> > resulted in the increased
> > wages; however, the effect is the opposite.
> >
> > As for the claim that americans don't want these jobs... these are a lot
> > of times simply lies
> > or a result and unwilliness to search for workers. Take the recent raid
> > here in MA in New Bedford
> > where a whole bunch of illegals were arrested... The funny thing is that
> > pretty much the next day
> > those jobs were filled... and they were filled with US citizens. So much
> > for americans not wanting
> > those jobs. The real problem is that the employers just don't want to
> > pay for the job. They want
> > to exploit the cheap labor and the illegals are willing to put up with
> > that. This is the new age slavery.
> > Speaking of slavery... What is slavery... Slavery is cheap labor. Now
> > let's go back in time when we
> > were using slave to do a lot of work. I'm pretty sure that in that age
> > there were a lot of people who
> > didn't want to get rid of slavery because they didn't want to loose
> > cheap labor. Slaves were
> > "keeping this country going economically". Sounds familiar? Yes, this is
> > what you are saying
> > about the illegals. Now let me ask you a question... Did the US survive
> > after getting read of slavery?
> > No! And if we survived getting rid of the ultimate source of cheap
> > labor, slaves, we will definitely
> > do find without having to use illegal aliens.
> >
> > Now let's talk about why Americans don't take a lot of those jobs... The
> > main reason is that you can
> > not survive on that kind of money if you live here legally!!! It's that
> > simple... I recommend all of you
> > to watch one of the episodes of "30 days" made by Morgan Spurlock. This
> > is the guy who made
> > "Supersize Me". He had a series on Fox where he explored various topics
> > for 30 days. One of those
> > topics was, "Is it possible to live on the minimal wage". He and his
> > girlfriend lived got minimal wage
> > jobs and tried to live on that for 30 days. The results of this
> > documentary will tell you a lot... They
> > barely managed to survive.. The bottom line if you live here by the law
> > doing everything you are suppose
> > to... paying all of the official expenses... you are on the edge of
> > existence.
> >
> > You may ask, "well, then how do illegal aliens manage to survive on so
> > little money"? The answer is very simple.
> > They do it because of subhuman living conditions and not having to pay
> > for a lot of things US citizens and permanent
> > residents have to pay. It's not uncommon for illegals to be stuffed like
> > sardines on top of each other in a 3 bedroom
> > house. As a result, each of them probably ends up paying at most $100 a
> > month for rent. Now let me ask you...
> > How much would it take if you want to get an apartment or a house? Well,
> > here in MA it's not uncommon to pay $1200
> > a month. Now let's compare... $100 an illegal spends on rent living in
> > subhuman conditions and $1200 a citizen spends
> > on average rent. Tell me how can I afford to work the job this illegal
> > has if only in rent I need to pay 12 times more than
> > he does? Good question... isn't it...
> >
> > Let's now forget that we have a huge number of legal immigrants coming
> > to this country each year.
> > At one point in my life I actually worked for a government agency that
> > deal with new immigrants (i'm talking about
> > legal immigrants). And I can tell you on my own experience that those
> > people were willing to do any job,
> > but it actually took a while to get jobs for some. And why... because
> > some shady employers would
> > rather hire an illegal for half the price rather then hire a legal
> > immigrant who just came to this country.
> > Kinda ironic... isn't it. All this screaming about not having enough
> > people to do the jobs, but for some
> > reasons the legal immigrants who are ready and willing to work can't
> > find jobs.
> >
> > As for national IDs. They are good for properly identifying who you are
> > dealing with. National IDs will result
> > in reduced identity theft, which is actually more relevant to this
> > mailing list. The last time I checked...
> > identity theft was bad :-)
> >
> > **
> >
> >
> >
> > On 5/18/07, Alex Eckelberry <AlexE () sunbelt-software com > wrote:
> > >
> > >  I can't actually understand, even after looking through your post,
> > > why it's _good_ to have a national ID card.  All I can see is an inevitable
> > > _bad_ that comes out of it.
> > >
> > > Incidentally, "illegal aliens" are the very people who are actually
> > > keeping this country going economically.  Perhaps we could have a national
> > > ID card just for those American citizens who want to pick strawberries and
> > > wash dishes.
> > >
> > > That would greatly limit the amount of cards issued and we'd all be
> > > happy.
> > >
> > > Alex Eckelberry
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  ------------------------------
> > > *From:* Randy Abrams [mailto:abrams () eset com]
> > > *Sent:* Friday, May 18, 2007 4:28 PM
> > > *To:* C Q; privacy () whitestar linuxbox org
> > > *Subject:* Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID?
> > >
> > >  pass the Kool-Aid please
> > >
> > >  ------------------------------
> > > *From:* C Q [mailto:kyle.c.quest () gmail com]
> > > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 16, 2007 10:56 PM
> > > *To:* privacy () whitestar linuxbox org
> > > *Subject:* Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID?
> > >
> > > It's a great idea to have a national id that's hard to forge...
> > > and even if not every place has a biometric card reader
> > > if the card is properly designed you'll be able to spot a fake
> > > (e.g., think special paper we use for money... with water
> > > marks and metal strips. and even though the money is far
> > > from perfect it's relatively easy to spot a fake by touch and
> > > by simply looking at them). This way even the farmers or whoever
> > > who don't have computers will be able to check the legality
> > > of their workers.
> > >
> > > Illegal aliens are one of the major problems in the US
> > > (we are not unique... any western country suffers from
> > > it... UK, France, etc... and even Mexico, which is kinda funny
> > > considering
> > > that they are also trying to get rid of illegal aliens
> > > from their southern borders).
> > >
> > > Yes, it's true that not everybody who want to come
> > > to the states and work can do that, but it's not because
> > > there's no legal way... it's because there are literally hundreds
> > > of millions of people who live in bad conditions. It's physically
> > > impossible take them all in... the country will simply fall apart.
> > > It's like a case when you have ship sinking and there's enough
> > > life boats only for a few people... if everybody tries to get
> > > on those few boats the boats will sink and everybody will drown.
> > > The US can not save everybody less fortunate in the world.
> > > We do take more legal immigrants every year than any other
> > > country in the world (I forgot the exact numbers, but I seem to
> > > remember it's about 3 million people) and on top of that
> > > we have a number of "guest worker" programs. H1B is one
> > > of them, but there are a number of others as well, which is
> > > teens from South Africa end up working as sky instructors
> > > during winters and kids from Scotland and Russia end up working
> > > in movie theaters during summers here in New England.
> > >
> > > The funny thing is that unlike UK or Australia (I might be a bit off
> > > on the names of the countries a bit... getting late) who use a point
> > > based system to determine who should get in their country
> > > our process is random, so we don't really get the best and the
> > > brightest.
> > >
> > > It's important to have a tamper-proof id that verifies a person's
> > > identity and his/her national status. It's the least we can do
> > > and I personally don't see a big deal why people are so scared
> > > of this. Other countries have internal passports as mandatory
> > > national IDs... and nothing terrible happens to people there.
> > > We have technology to do this and it doesn't have to be too
> > > high tech.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 5/17/07, Fergie <fergdawg () netzero net > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > > Hash: SHA1
> > > >
> > > > Via Homeland Stupidity.
> > > >
> > > > [snip]
> > > >
> > > > Two proposals being floated around Capitol Hill call for the Social
> > > > Security card to be updated with biometric information and for U.S.
> > > > employers to be required to verify it with the Department of
> > > > Homeland
> > > > Security when hiring.
> > > >
> > > > Scared yet? You should be. While everyone was off fighting the REAL
> > > > ID
> > > > battle, national identification proponents were sneaking in the back
> > > > door,
> > > > arguing that the Social Security card should be updated with the
> > > > latest
> > > > technology to prevent illegal immigrants from working.
> > > >
> > > > Under the so-called Bonner Plan, citizens and resident aliens alike
> > > > would
> > > > have to obtain a new Social Security card containing their
> > > > photograph, a
> > > > barcode or magnetic stripe containing an encrypted signature
> > > > verifiable
> > > > through card readers provided by the Department of Homeland
> > > > Security, and
> > > > would have to present this card in order to obtain work. The plan
> > > > provides
> > > > that employers who fail to verify the card face fines, prison time,
> > > > and
> > > > would be billed for the cost of deporting any illegal aliens they
> > > > may have
> > > > hired.
> > > >
> > > > Of course, they're still claiming that the card wouldn't be a
> > > > national
> > > > ID card. But if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it
> > > > certainly
> > > > isn't a sheep.
> > > >
> > > > [snip]
> > > >
> > > > More:
> > > > http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2007/05/16/social-security-card-to-be-natio
> > > >
> > > > nal-id/
> > > >
> > > > - - ferg
> > > >
> > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > > > Version: PGP Desktop 9.6.1 (Build 1012)
> > > >
> > > > wj8DBQFGS9vUq1pz9mNUZTMRAtEVAKC7v/r/0vx5bTAiH6blwMO6iTCAcQCgyA8K
> > > > rzCOsuTMsatnP00Ik8Y1Gto=
> > > > =54Kc
> > > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > "Fergie", a.k.a. Paul Ferguson
> > > > Engineering Architecture for the Internet
> > > > fergdawg(at)netzero.net
> > > > ferg's tech blog: http://fergdawg.blogspot.com/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > privacy mailing list
> > > > privacy () whitestar linuxbox org
> > > > http://www.whitestar.linuxbox.org/mailman/listinfo/privacy
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ...
> > >
> >
> >
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